Ophiuchus wrote: ↑Fri Jan 17, 2020 12:34 pmI still do not see my concerns addressed regarding pilots.
So multishot A first. Weapon is mostly like 3 three MD3 in one for half the price. Do you assume base hull structure 2 or 3?
You aim for a laser level weapon but Multishot-A upgrades damage per pilot like a plasma weapon.
Compared to my 3-shot Gamma Burst proposal: You suggest much higher research cost and turns (40+30+45+75 vs 12+10+50 RP), but 25% cheaper build cost (30 vs 40PP) and starting at a lower damage (2 vs 3). Max stats without pilots are the same.
The problem I see with the original proposal is that the niche is very constrained, specially in time (suboptimal late game).
Comparing Gamma Burst Slingshot (as per original suggestion), Fighters/Bombers (1 hangar+ 1launch bay), and the multishot A and B:
PP costs
- GBS: 40
- Fighters: 40
- Bombers: 45
- MSA: 30 (maybe 40)
- MSB: 50 (maybe 60)
Facing shielded (GBS) or flak-defended (fighters) ships (same tech level for shield):
Bout | GBS | Fighter | Bombers | MSA (Sh3) | MSB (Sh5) |
1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 |
2 | 0 | 2*3 | 2*5 | 0 | 0 |
3 | 0 | 1*3 | 0 | 0 | 0 |
Total | 0 | 3*3 | 2*5 | 0 | 0 |
Three refinements (also for CBS although the OP only mentions two)
Facing undefended ships
Bout | GBS | Fighter | Bombers | MSA | MSB |
1 | 3*6 | 0 | 0 | 3*5 | 3*11 |
2 | 3*6 | 2*13 | 2*19 | 3*5 | 3*11 |
3 | 3*6 | 3*13 | 2*19 | 3*5 | 3*11 |
Total | 9*6 | 5*13 | 4*19 | 9*5 | 9*11 |
Facing shielded (GBS) or flak-defended (fighters) ships (same tech level for shield):
Bout | GBS | Fighter | Bombers | MSA (Sh3) | MSB (Sh9) |
1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 3*2 | 3*2 |
2 | 0 | 2*13 | 2*19 | 3*2 | 3*2 |
3 | 0 | 1*13 | 0 | 3*2 | 3*2 |
Total | 0 | 3*13 | 2*19 | 9*2 | 9*2 |
Six Refinements (3 techs+ultimate pilots)
Facing undefended ships
Bout | Fighter | Bombers | MSA | MSB |
1 | 0 | 0 | 3*8 | 3*17 |
2 | 2*13 | 2*19 | 3*8 | 3*17 |
3 | 3*13 | 2*19 | 3*8 | 3*17 |
Total | 5*13 | 4*19 | 9*8 | 9*17 |
Facing shielded (GBS) or flak-defended (fighters) ships (same tech level for shield):
Bout | Fighter | Bombers | MSA (Sh5) | MSB (Sh15) |
1 | 0 | 0 | 3*3 | 3*2 |
2 | 2*13 | 2*19 | 3*3 | 3*2 |
3 | 1*13 | 0 | 3*3 | 3*2 |
Total | 3*13 | 2*19 | 9*3 | 3*2 |
As a pilot-independent weapon, bombers and fighters are comparable to the GBS against undefended ships but better against defended ones. And this is worse late game: fighters are a viable strategy for both killing fleets of shielded and unshielded ships, and comparable to GBS at killing comsats (fighters can kill 3 per turn, total 6, GBS only 1.5 per turn, total 4.5). In multiplayer games recently, with the latest base hull change, fleets focused on bombers were great at taking down comsats (not shooting on bout 1 wasn't a problem since the comsats were not soaking much damage on bout 1). So I think the GBS with this specs would have little use in-game, more so if you consider that you don't see big chunks of comsats early game (when this weapons is competitive).
So I thought the multishot weapon would be better if it could scale until late game. Could not make it work for a cheap weapon that spans from early to late game (either useless or too powerful at some point of game). The same with an expensive one, like the first suggestion I made in this thread, found some objections that I don't share but I'm unable to contest. So I tried to do something similar with two multishot weapons, A and B, both pilot-dependent and capable of compete with bombers.
If you allow the GBS to make use of pilots trait and add a fourth tech (third refinement) for it you get more or less my multishot-A suggestion, with one less damage per shot at start to make it comparable to laser: better versus unshielded (much better versus unshield small), much worse versus shielded. Hence the 30 PP cost, same as laser, and RP costs 50% greater than those of laser to compensate for the extra damage it can do when not countered. It is well suited (cost effective) against very small unshielded ships late game (not only comsats, any other small hull without late game armour), and with it's smaller cost compared to bombers/figthers it's still competitive late game against comsats.
The B version (tier 4, comparable in cost and damage to a death ray) is intended for not so small or only slightly shielded ships. It is not as cost-effective as MSA against comsats but it is way better at shooting down bigger ships, and to be fully countered the enemy must invest on expensive top-tier shields, so it is competetive end game.
For the fluff, I see MSA as a form of massive, fast mass driver. Something like a doped space shotgun or massive railgun, that shoots a swarm of projectiles to an area hoping to hit several targets, but with each shot being small and easily rejected with shields. The refinements make the shot stronger and the ammo heavier.
The MSB could be unlocked by the MSA and the Neutronium Something, and be a gravitational (instead of magnetic) railgun that shoots small balls of concentrated mass (alike to Futurama's Nibbler's little feces). It could be required, or not, to have an internal slot for the weapons to work, something like a Mass Quark Concentrator (or something fancier by less gliberish), which could be helpful for balancing. The masses used as bullets, being non-metallic, non-magnetic and immensely dense, are able to penetrate the less advanced shields.
Ophiuchus wrote: ↑Fri Jan 17, 2020 12:34 pmIf we want to use pilot skill I think I would rather go for setting base hull to two damage, make the weapon damage-2 and have the number of shots increased, maybe have this automatically available like the flak cannon - lets call it Mine-thrower or something. Could be targeting ships only, not planets. Probably target fighters as well. The main use would be to bring down early game comsats preferably in the first combat bout. Fighters appear starting from bout two, so that is kind of complementory.
So pilots increase fire rate (like flak) and techs increase damage? Sounds like refinements for the flak
Or you mean the other way around? Pilots increase damage and techs increase fire rate?
Starting at fire rate 3, you get a 3(early)/6(late) shot weapon of damage 1(bad pilot)-5(ultimate pilot). Base tech, avg. pilots: 3*2 (like 2MD1, or 1Laser1+20%); maxed out with Fulver/Etty: 6*3 (like 1Plasma4 but usless against any shield); with Misiorla: 6*5 (like 1DR4 but usless against shield 5 or better, and 40% against shield 3).
This weapon would be specially good against small, unshielded ships (and more so when you get the upgrades) and figthers, and utterly useless against shielded ships. I think it predates the flak cannon except in very seldom circumstances (like facing a fleet made only of shielded-carriers if you have Eaxaw/Mu Ursh/Misiorla). In that case, this could be a rework of the flak cannon.