New weapon part - Gamma Burst Slingshot (aka Arc Disruptor)

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Oberlus
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Re: New weapon part - Gamma Burst Slingshot

#61 Post by Oberlus »

I'm not sure I got numbers wrong:

(shots x damage)
GBS1: 3x2
GBS2: 3x4
GBS3: 3x7

Am I right?

So GBS1 does 6 per bout (like 2xMD1 or MD4 or L1.5)
GBS2 does 12 per bout (3xMD2 or 2xMD4 or L4.5)
GBS3 does 21 per bout (3xL2 or (almost) 2xL4 or P5)

And so one GBS2 is better than a laser if we don't consider defences.

If we consider shields, we also consider full ship designs.


Old bomber+GBS vs newer shielded robo lasers
GBS at 40 PPs. The GBS empire has researched laser fighters as well, instead of zortrium, shields and robo hulls.


Ship designs:

Old GBS
Large basic hull + bomber2 hangar/bay + GBS2 + armour1
104 PPs, 21 HP

Robo laser (A)
Shield1 + 2xLaser4 + armour2
136 PPs, 37 HP

Robo laser + flak (B)
Shield1 + Laser4 + flak + armour2
126 PPs, 26 HP


Battle: 4 Oldies (416 PP, 4x21 HP) vs 3 Robo A (409 PP, 3x37 HP).
GBS does 3x1 damage per bout, bombers do 2x9.
The lasers do 1x11
(ships x bouts x shotsPErBoutAndShip x damage)
4x3x3x1 + 4x2x2x9 vs 3x3x2x11
36+144 vs 198

Mutual destruction assured. It does not matter that robos kill all oldies in bout one (which they can't), bombers still kill all robos.
Change one or two oldies for some chaff and you still destroy the whole robo fleet but might have armed survivors.
Change one or two robos for chaff and the GBS fleet still has advantage (it has GBS against chaff!).
Do this for symbiotic hulls and it gets worse for lasers because of the worse ratio damage per shot / hull structure (greater overshooting).


Battle: 5 Oldies (520 PP, 5x21 HP) vs 4 Robo B (504 PP, 4x37 HP)
5x3x3x1 + 5x1x2x9 vs 4x3x1x11
45+90 vs 132

Flaks does solve the problem a bit for Robos: they now do half the damage and receive half damage from bombers, so one or two robos will survive but probably no oldies.However, adding chaff will help oldies.
If you down GBS cost to 30 PP (above calculations are for 40 PP):

Battle (GBS 30 PP): 4 Oldies (376 PP, 4x21 HP) vs 3 Robo B (378 PP, 3x37 HP)
4x3x3x1 + 4x1x2x9 vs 3x3x1x11
36+73 vs 99

Now this is too close to be balanced for both sides, knowing that the robo fleet has invested more RP and same PP. That is, this gives advantage to blitzkriegs. If the GBS empire rushes some armed ships, it will have more PP in the field when facing the Robo fleet.

And that's why I think 30/35 PP GBS would predate MDs.

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Re: New weapon part - Gamma Burst Slingshot

#62 Post by Ophiuchus »

Hm if i look at your battles it looks like you are not considering losses of GBS oldies in attacks, I guess those oldies would be just half effective.
Oberlus wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 10:09 am The GBS empire has researched laser fighters as well, instead of zortrium, shields and robo hulls.
empire I - GBS-1 12RP, GBS-2 120RP, Laser-1 60 RP, Fighters 12RP, LFighters 20RP -> 224RP
empire II - Robo 24RP, Laser-3 160RP, Shield-3 100RP -> 284RP (Laser-4 would be another 100, Zortrium another 60)

Oldies (30+20+10+30v35v40+4PP == 94v99v104PP)

To make it more extreme would Robo 3lasers+flak (C) - 3Lasers-3, 1 Flak, 1 Shield-3 fare (40+90+20+30PP == 180PP) fare against the oldies?

9 [email protected] (891 PP, 9x21HP) vs 5 Robo C (900 PP, 5x25HP, sh-3).
1st bout: Oldies do 27damage, launch 18 bombers. Robos do 135damage. Probably one oldies down.
2nd bout: Oldies do 24damage, bombers do 154 damage. Robos do 135damage. Probably all oldies dead, about 14 bombers down. Very probably all robos dead.
3rd bout: whatever survived in ships is annihilating each other, 4 bombers still up. I guess the chance that a single oldie and no robo made it is quite higher than the other way round. So advantage for the oldies.

(Note that empire II fleet would become more effective if switching two (or one) Lasers-3 against GBS-1. If GBS also shoots fighters this would probably kill off 3 more bombers.)

Yes, against the bombers also armour is necessary which takes away weapon space.

I now see your point. 40 PP it is for the moment. And GBS attacks also fighters. That ok for you?


General:
So what about making shield-3 easier accessible (e.g. 60 RP) and half-price?

Laser fighters tech might be a bit too cheap? Or shield piercing is too effective (50% piercing would be probably better balanced)

Adding a bout before fighters start would also help of course ;)
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Re: New weapon part - Gamma Burst Slingshot

#63 Post by Oberlus »

Ophiuchus wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 2:00 pm I now see your point. 40 PP it is for the moment. And GBS attacks also fighters. That ok for you?
Yep.
So what about making shield-3 easier accessible (e.g. 60 RP) and half-price?
Dunno, need to analyse lots of cases yet.
Laser fighters tech might be a bit too cheap? Or shield piercing is too effective (50% piercing would be probably better balanced)
Whoa, haven't consudered this. Need to think.

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Re: New weapon part - Gamma Burst Slingshot

#64 Post by Oberlus »

I have not had time for the above questions, but I got this other concern:


If this new weapon is conceptualised as a missile that gets close to the target and then shoots something, we are practically talking about fighters, and we are indeed talking about missiles. So why can't we shoot them down as we do with fighters and intend to do with missiles?
I know that is just a matter of "realism", but I think it is important because in this case it is very directly related to how are explanied/justified other parts of the game, and the game does not need to be realistic but must be coherent for better gaming experience and easier learning curve.

The idea of this kind of missile-based fluff is to justify that pilots skill does not affect weapon damage, to introduce a weapon more suited to bad pilot species.

We should not go back to a GBS weapon that is affected by pilots trait because:
- the numbers now seem balanced and that would require a redesign;
- it's nice to have a direct-damage weapon that is not affected by pilots trait, new weapon niche;
- there must be a better fluff to get this done as it is now.

What about some kind of area of damage explanation?

So you are shooting some kind of beam that affects a great portion of the space but with low damage to any particular point in that space. I think it makes more sense to talk about some kind of continuous, diffused beam rather than a multi-shot, pulsed weapon (which one would expect to be affected by pilots trait). How to do that without overlapping with existing beam weapons? No idea yet.

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Re: New weapon part - Gamma Burst Slingshot

#65 Post by labgnome »

Oberlus wrote: Fri Mar 06, 2020 11:39 am What about some kind of area of damage explanation?

So you are shooting some kind of beam that affects a great portion of the space but with low damage to any particular point in that space. I think it makes more sense to talk about some kind of continuous, diffused beam rather than a multi-shot, pulsed weapon (which one would expect to be affected by pilots trait). How to do that without overlapping with existing beam weapons? No idea yet.
Maybe some kind of plasma-wave weapon? As it produces an expanding wave-front and not a coherent beam, it can't be specifically targeted like direct fire weapons.
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Re: New weapon part - Gamma Burst Slingshot

#66 Post by Ophiuchus »

Oberlus wrote: Fri Mar 06, 2020 11:39 am If this new weapon is conceptualised as a missile that gets close to the target and then shoots something, we are practically talking about fighters, and we are indeed talking about missiles. So why can't we shoot them down as we do with fighters and intend to do with missiles?
They do not get as close as fighters (they stay out of shield for example) or missiles, they activate before PD can kill them off.
Oberlus wrote: Fri Mar 06, 2020 11:39 amWhat about some kind of area of damage explanation?
Gamma Burst Shotgun
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Re: New weapon part - Gamma Burst Slingshot

#67 Post by Oberlus »

labgnome wrote: Fri Mar 06, 2020 5:35 pmplasma-wave weapon
Ophiuchus wrote: Fri Mar 06, 2020 8:47 pmGamma Burst Shotgun
Both good ideas. I would stick to GB Shotgun because it does not use the "plasma" word, which helps players realise it has nothing to do with that and techs are not related.

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Re: New weapon part - Gamma Burst Slingshot

#68 Post by labgnome »

Oberlus wrote: Sat Mar 07, 2020 10:17 am
labgnome wrote: Fri Mar 06, 2020 5:35 pmplasma-wave weapon
Ophiuchus wrote: Fri Mar 06, 2020 8:47 pmGamma Burst Shotgun
Both good ideas. I would stick to GB Shotgun because it does not use the "plasma" word, which helps players realise it has nothing to do with that and techs are not related.
I hate the "shotgun" about as much as I hate "slingshot" the names are just not sci-fi.

What about just gamma wave?
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Re: New weapon part - Gamma Burst Slingshot

#69 Post by Oberlus »

labgnome wrote: Mon Mar 09, 2020 2:24 pmI hate the "shotgun" [...] just not sci-fi.
But Sci none the less.
A shotgun for ship-to-ship combat in space is actually a reasonable thing, since at such big distances it is much more likely to hit the target with a cloud of shrapnel than a single bullet, and that piece of shrapnel could already have enough kinetic force to open a hole in your hull.
I've always imagined the MD as a sort of debris shotgun (you accellerate a tray loaded of asteroid debris in a railgun and see how that cloud of debris flies at high speed towards your enemy while your ship goes a bit backwards).

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Re: New weapon part - Gamma Burst Slingshot

#70 Post by Ophiuchus »

labgnome wrote: Mon Mar 09, 2020 2:24 pm What about just gamma wave?
What i do not like about wave is that it is to fuzzy. To me it gives the impression of an omnidirectional weapon (so affecting all ships/all ships in vicinity). Shotgun gives me the hint of a directed spread. If the wave is not omnidirectional, it could be also a simple beam weapon (no spread). Also shotgun starts with S ;)

Also i think the space-opera genre is related to cowboy genre in the sense how the stories work. Equating the cowboy on a horse with the gun with a pilot with a ship which has a ship-gun works for me at least.

Other name ideas :
Gamma Bubble Spreader, Godly Boom Spreader, Great Bulk of Sand thrower... :lol:
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Re: New weapon part - Gamma Burst Slingshot

#71 Post by labgnome »

Oberlus wrote: Mon Mar 09, 2020 8:24 pmI've always imagined the MD as a sort of debris shotgun (you accellerate a tray loaded of asteroid debris in a railgun and see how that cloud of debris flies at high speed towards your enemy while your ship goes a bit backwards).
That visual only makes me like the idea less. It's so "messy".
Ophiuchus wrote: Tue Mar 10, 2020 10:41 am
labgnome wrote: Mon Mar 09, 2020 2:24 pm What about just gamma wave?
What i do not like about wave is that it is to fuzzy. To me it gives the impression of an omnidirectional weapon (so affecting all ships/all ships in vicinity). Shotgun gives me the hint of a directed spread. If the wave is not omnidirectional, it could be also a simple beam weapon (no spread). Also shotgun starts with S ;)
If we are going to change the name I see no reason to keep the "GBS" abbreviation.
Also i think the space-opera genre is related to cowboy genre in the sense how the stories work. Equating the cowboy on a horse with the gun with a pilot with a ship which has a ship-gun works for me at least.
You're talking to someone who grew-up with westerns and hates them.
Other name ideas :
Gamma Bubble Spreader, Godly Boom Spreader, Great Bulk of Sand thrower... :lol:
The Gamma Bubble tells me that you are being disingenuous in your supposed dislike of "wave" being omnidirectional. Please do not make "bad faith" arguments with me. It doesn't help your case.

What about Planar Waveform Generator? Directed Energy Burst?
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Re: New weapon part - Gamma Burst Slingshot

#72 Post by Ophiuchus »

labgnome wrote: Wed Mar 11, 2020 4:36 pm You're talking to someone who grew-up with westerns and hates them.
Ok, i did not know that. We have different impressions/history obviously.
labgnome wrote: Wed Mar 11, 2020 4:36 pm
Other name ideas :
Gamma Bubble Spreader, Godly Boom Spreader, Great Bulk of Sand thrower... :lol:
The Gamma Bubble tells me that you are being disingenuous in your supposed dislike of "wave" being omnidirectional. Please do not make "bad faith" arguments with me. It doesn't help your case.
First of all there is no case. If my code gets merged it is in and if not it is not. Sticking to GBS is just a form of convenience, if someone searches the forum for GBS they will find this discussion and other threads where the GBS is mentioned.

Also I thought i made it clear I was half-joking with the Godly Boom Spreader.

But the bubble metaphor actually I meant in earnesty. The weapon spreads bubbles which on contact explode in a omnidirectional gamma wave. Also the sand thrower (==bulk particle accelerator) is a possible explanation. But both the bubbles and the thrower are not very suggestive.
labgnome wrote: Wed Mar 11, 2020 4:36 pm What about Planar Waveform Generator? Directed Energy Burst?
Directed Energy/Gamma/Whatever Burst would be fine for me. Directed and Burst give the right impression, the middle word is the necessary sci-fi fluff. But i half-dislike DEB/DGB, still like the shotgun more. So lets do a poll, why not-that is the way superficial democracy works. Deadline to add more entries to the poll besides GBS/DGB: the next hour.
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Re: New weapon part - Gamma Burst Slingshot

#73 Post by Oberlus »

Ophiuchus wrote: Wed Mar 11, 2020 6:33 pmDeadline to add more entries to the poll besides GBS/DGB: the next hour.
Relativistic Bag of Sand.
From one of the answers here:
vsz at worldbuilding.stackexchange wrote:A bunch of sand fired at a significant fraction of light speed will be close to impossible to detect in time, and impossible to defend against with point defenses even if detected. By giving it some spread, you can even compensate small errors in accuracy. Imagine it like a huge space shotgun. Even if the enemy spaceship somehow survives a hit, it will be stripped of sensors, weapons and engines.
But I like the shotgun word more than anything else, I do think it conveys the concept of the weapon (for its effects) pretty well, and I have no particular fobia to western stuff nor I think it is contrary to scifi or even to pure fictionless science. Plus I loved Firefly.
So Whatever Shotgun would be my choice. For the "whatever" part, I would go for a kinetic fluff better than energy, just because. So Mass Driver Shotgun, Burst Railgun, or something like that.

I don't like the bubbles here.

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Re: New weapon part - Gamma Burst Slingshot

#74 Post by Ophiuchus »

How about Good Old Burst Shotgun GOBS?
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Re: New weapon part - Gamma Burst Slingshot

#75 Post by Oberlus »

Biatch Shotgun

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