0.4.10 large hull buff - 3 fuel

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Ophiuchus
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0.4.10 large hull buff - 3 fuel

#1 Post by Ophiuchus »

Thinking about fine-tuning game balance in 0.4.10:

The basic large hull up effective fuel to 3 so it has the same basic reach like the medium hull (than you can combine those in a out-of-supply fleet) and gives it a single edge compared to robotic hull. robotic hull is still better overall: has better structure cost efficiency, regeneration, is faster, has the same number of external slots per PP (+1 slot), same number of internal slots.

Any suggestions/objections?
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Oberlus
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Re: 0.4.10 large hull buff - 3 fuel

#2 Post by Oberlus »

I've been thinking (but not commenting) for a long time that fuel mechanics are a bit extreme: some hulls have enormous amounts of fuel while others can barely jump 1 hop outside of their supply.
I think the problem is in the progression of fuel efficiency: 50%, 100%, 200%, 400% (IIRC).
What about 100%, 150%, 200% and 300%? So that one fuel tank always gives 1 hop even to the largest hulls (I find that quite reasonable given how expensive/rare are internal slots).

Regarding medium and large basic hulls, I like that the large one has one less starting fuel.

Ophiuchus
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Re: 0.4.10 large hull buff - 3 fuel

#3 Post by Ophiuchus »

Oberlus wrote: Tue Jul 14, 2020 4:33 pm I've been thinking (but not commenting) for a long time that fuel mechanics are a bit extreme: some hulls have enormous amounts of fuel while others can barely jump 1 hop outside of their supply.
I think the problem is in the progression of fuel efficiency: 50%, 100%, 200%, 400% (IIRC).
What about 100%, 150%, 200% and 300%? So that one fuel tank always gives 1 hop even to the largest hulls (I find that quite reasonable given how expensive/rare are internal slots).
Your suggestion would basically mean a complete balance pass for all hulls. This is out of scope for this thread which considers only minor tweaks to 0.4.10
Oberlus wrote: Tue Jul 14, 2020 4:33 pm Regarding medium and large basic hulls, I like that the large one has one less starting fuel.
I also find that "interesting" or "realistic". Having the same movement properties makes fleet design easier (and these are "basic" hulls) and medium and large hulls have already the same speed. Else please suggest a different minor buff which makes large hull interesting compared to robotic hull.
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wobbly
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Re: 0.4.10 large hull buff - 3 fuel

#4 Post by wobbly »

I'm not seeing a reason why a large hull should be competing with a robotic hull. It seems to me the main point of basic hulls is that they can be built without the orbital drydock.

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Re: 0.4.10 large hull buff - 3 fuel

#5 Post by Ophiuchus »

wobbly wrote: Wed Jul 15, 2020 5:29 am I'm not seeing a reason why a large hull should be competing with a robotic hull. It seems to me the main point of basic hulls is that they can be built without the orbital drydock.
Robotic hull is just very similar from the stats (PP cost and slot progression) and easily reachable at the beginning, so those hulls are very much competing in terms of combat efficiency. Also drydock is cheap and you start with one. Adding one fuel to the large hull does not make it the same level like robotic hull (which is the important point, because robotic hull should be better overall or have distinctive advantages in common cases). If you say you can not compare large hull with robotic hull, it is impossible to compare it to any other hull line. If you think those are not competing just forget about robotic hull if you want and think about large hull.

The current large hull compared to medium hull has one more external slot which helps to mount an extra armour if you have cheap access to that. You also profit more when mounting a shield. On the other hand the medium hull profits more from reinforced hull. Medium hull has one extra jump which means it can go also two hops out of supply and return and it profits more from fuel tank. To get that extra fuel with large hull one needs a fuel tank and research a fuel tech.


So currently offered options
  • keep it like it is
  • +1 fuel
I will open a poll on sunday, please add suggestions.
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Oberlus
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Re: 0.4.10 large hull buff - 3 fuel

#6 Post by Oberlus »

Keep it like it is.

I don't see the point on buffing Large Hull to better compete with Robotic Hull. Large Hull doesn't need to be interesting compared to Robotic Hull. As commented in other threads, Robotic Hull needs to be nerfed in some way (probably just increase tech cost), but medium hull is still useful when on a tight budget (colony/outpost ships with that hull are cheaper than with Robotic, also chaff, and can be built faster, no need for drydock).

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Re: 0.4.10 large hull buff - 3 fuel

#7 Post by Ophiuchus »

Oberlus wrote: Wed Jul 15, 2020 10:18 am medium hull is still useful when on a tight budget (colony/outpost ships with that hull are cheaper than with Robotic, also chaff, and can be built faster, no need for drydock).
Yes, but you did not answer the question at all: is the large hull useful?
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Oberlus
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Re: 0.4.10 large hull buff - 3 fuel

#8 Post by Oberlus »

Ophiuchus wrote: Wed Jul 15, 2020 1:11 pm is the large hull useful?
For combat vs medium hulls, large hulls are more durable, with and without defense grid.
Players in MP do build cruisers.
Once there is robotic hull or organic hull, large hulls are obsolete, which I consider right.

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