Make viable the Tall strategy

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labgnome
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Re: Make viable the Tall strategy

#16 Post by labgnome »

Oberlus wrote: Sat Aug 22, 2020 3:01 pm I do. I do like the idea. You better defend well your humongous powerhouse. Relatively easy for Tall&Narrow empires, harder for Wide empires.
Having it be easily destroyed will just make it more difficult to capture.
labgnome wrote: Sat Aug 22, 2020 2:51 pm
You can try go wide research with a flat malus to production in all your planets (so no production at all), but I wonder how would you defend your empire against others with no armed ships.
I'm not sure what having or not having armed ships has to do with research output.
When your planets are conquered (by enemies) they stop contributing to your research. I see some relation here...
Okay... What does that have to do with weather or not to have a malus to research? I don't follow your line of reasoning.
That limitation is a pain in the ass, I don't like it.
I would make the policy affect only a subset of your colonies, the larger ones probably (planet size or current population).
That doesn't address the need for a PP sink, and also gives us the Wide+Tall problem. I don't think the limitation is a bad thing. I think it will be easy enough to understand and communicate to players.
labgnome wrote: Sat Aug 22, 2020 2:51 pm Basically I want there to be fewer Ecumenopoli than Arcologies but more of them than the Ringworld.
I think it's better to start with more varied stuff, two buildings seems to me more than enough.
labgnome wrote: Sat Aug 22, 2020 2:51 pm The special could produce the effects of the building as described.
Being a building or a policy is enough to trigger the effects, no need for the special.
If we have one that's just a building, one that creates a special and one that creates a planet that's pretty varied to me. It makes each one unique.
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Oberlus
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Re: Make viable the Tall strategy

#17 Post by Oberlus »

labgnome wrote: Sat Aug 22, 2020 4:10 pm Having it be easily destroyed will just make it more difficult to capture.
Or even impossible to capture. "It's mine or no one's".
labgnome wrote: Sat Aug 22, 2020 4:10 pm Okay... What does that have to do with weather or not to have a malus to research? I don't follow your line of reasoning.
If you have a flat malus to production on all your colonies (around -4) and you don't compensate it with production focus (because of research), you get no production points, can't build army and get conquered.
labgnome wrote: Sat Aug 22, 2020 4:10 pm If we have one that's just a building, one that creates a special and one that creates a planet that's pretty varied to me. It makes each one unique.
They must be varied in terms of gameplay. Policy != building. Bulding == building.

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labgnome
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Re: Make viable the Tall strategy

#18 Post by labgnome »

Oberlus wrote: Sat Aug 22, 2020 4:31 pmThey must be varied in terms of gameplay. Policy != building. Bulding == building.
Planet != Building. Special != Building.

However if you are insistent in warping my idea into a policy, can you at least call it something different?
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Oberlus
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Re: Make viable the Tall strategy

#19 Post by Oberlus »

labgnome wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 4:13 am
Oberlus wrote: Sat Aug 22, 2020 4:31 pmThey must be varied in terms of gameplay. Policy != building. Bulding == building.
Planet != Building. Special != Building.
Disagree. There are little differences between buildable specials (gated through a building) and buildings. You must be confused.
However if you are insistent in warping my idea into a policy, can you at least call it something different?
It is not warping it. More like you are trying to warp a policy concept into a building or a special in a nonsensical way.
An, no, sorry, I will use that word. I really like the concept of planet-wide cities. And it's not really yours the idea or the word for it, it's in Stellaris, it was conceived in 1967, you have the wikipedia page talking about it, many sci-fi books have it...
How would you call the concept of planets fully urbanized if you were forbidden to use the greek for "world-city"? Maybe "World-city"? I like much more the greek word. Thanks to bring it to my attention.

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labgnome
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Re: Make viable the Tall strategy

#20 Post by labgnome »

Oberlus wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 9:13 amDisagree. There are little differences between buildable specials (gated through a building) and buildings. You must be confused.
Well I still disagree with you. I don't think I'm confused, I think you're just being stubborn. They might have similarities but that doesn't make the the same thing. You aren't going to force me to see things your way. Certainly not with the bad attitude and tone you have here.
It is not warping it. More like you are trying to warp a policy concept into a building or a special in a nonsensical way.
Dude, I brought the idea to this forum, I think I get to say what kind of concept it's supposed to be. I know what I intended. Or do you just not have any respect for me and my ideas.
An, no, sorry, I will use that word. I really like the concept of planet-wide cities. And it's not really yours the idea or the word for it, it's in Stellaris, it was conceived in 1967, you have the wikipedia page talking about it, many sci-fi books have it...
How would you call the concept of planets fully urbanized if you were forbidden to use the greek for "world-city"? Maybe "World-city"? I like much more the greek word. Thanks to bring it to my attention.
Call it "Planetary Urbanization" or something. Just have the decency to not use the idea, which you admit I brought to your attention, in a way I have repeatedly tried to tell you is outside the scope of its intention. Not doing so disrespects my contributions here and creates a hostile environment.
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Oberlus
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Re: Make viable the Tall strategy

#21 Post by Oberlus »

labgnome wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 4:34 pm Call it "Planetary Urbanization" or something.
OK, fine. I'll call it "Planet-wide urbanization". But in Greek. Ecumenopolis is the closest translation, but I won't use your idea, just the word.

labgnome wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 4:34 pm Just have the decency to not use the idea
Are you calling me indecent for using a word that is not patented/registered? Wow!

labgnome wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 4:34 pm which you admit I brought to your attention
In a collaborative thread about FreeOrion, an open-source project.
Seriously, if you don't want "your" ideas (that are concepts floating in the mankind from before you were born) to be used by others, keep them "secret".
labgnome wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 4:34 pm in a way I have repeatedly tried to tell you is outside the scope of its intention.
And I hear you from the start, but it seems you don't understand: I don't care what is your intention (you can feel bad about it if you like, that would be your choice, and only yours, I'm only responsible for trying to not hurt your feelings), I care about creating good stuff for FreeOrion.
labgnome wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 4:34 pm Not doing so disrespects my contributions here
That is only your subjective and confused perception. You choose to take this personally.
labgnome wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 4:34 pm and creates a hostile environment.
Hey, you want to contribute an Ecumenopolis thingy that is exacly what you like it to be? Go learn GitHub, do a PR, get it merged into master, and be happy.

labgnome, I'm sick of you.
You and me have clashed too many times. We don't get along each other and we can't fix that. I will keep trying to not interact with you, I suggest you do the same.
However, you better start not contributing stuff you don't want to be "disrespected" or do the right legal work to make sure it is kept as your intellectual property. Otherwise, I will feel free to use anything that is not copyrighted, if I like the idea, and I will use it however I find it appropriate as per my criteria (which is different than yours).
I will no longer feel bad about your feelings in discussions like this, regardless of the original idea discussed being yours or not, because I genuinely think it is your problem, not mine.

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LienRag
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Re: Make viable the Tall strategy

#22 Post by LienRag »

The thing is that the "go Wide or go bust" doesn't come out of nothing.
It's a direct consequence of one of FreeOrion core design choice, to have (most) effects generated at Empire scale (well, mostly at the scale of the Supply group, but usually it's the same).

Once we have buildings that are basically Small Wonders, built once and affecting all the planets in their Supply group, then colonizing everything to make the most of these initial investments is the logical thing to do.

And I'm very wary of using Policies to artificially create playstyles, rather than having them as tools to integrate in one's strategy to create an infinity of possible playstyles.

So, though Policies could be one tool to help making a Tall strategy viable, I really don't think that we're there yet.
Yes, Influence cost of new colonies will put colonize-everything Wide strategies in check are it is intended to do, but so far they do not create a Wide/Tall dialectic, and nothing else actually does.

That is imho the point that must be addressed first and foremost before talking about making the Tall strategy viable : what would be a Tall strategy ?
A Tall empire form I can guess what it is, but it isn't per se a strategy, it's only the consequence of a Tall strategy, which inner mechanics I cannot foresee - and which imho is not possible with the current game mechanisms, with or without Policies.

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Oberlus
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Re: Make viable the Tall strategy

#23 Post by Oberlus »

LienRag, did you read OP before begining this verbal incontinency?
Anyways, if you want to ask "what's a tall strategy?" you need less than 200 words.

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Krikkitone
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Re: Make viable the Tall strategy

#24 Post by Krikkitone »

LienRag wrote: Fri Sep 04, 2020 12:47 am The thing is that the "go Wide or go bust" doesn't come out of nothing.
It's a direct consequence of one of FreeOrion core design choice, to have (most) effects generated at Empire scale (well, mostly at the scale of the Supply group, but usually it's the same).
Its actually an even more core design choice than "Effects at empire scale" it's "Planets as the core power resource".... you can have planets of different quality, and they require time to reach max potential.... but Planets+Time=Max Output

For a Tall strategy to work there needs to be
1. A Way to Invest in the output of a planet without limit (or almost without limit..similar to how you can invest in Colony ships.. to the limit)
2. Drastically increase max population of planets without game elements that increase growth rate on ALL planets

For #1 say "Automated Factories" was a building... an expensive building that you could build as many times as you wanted on a planet and increased the production of the planet by a fixed amount, but required influence/research upkeep or they are destroyed.

Or #2.. Allow populations to grow above the "maximum" on worlds of the proper habitability, but at the same slow rate as when it is near the maximum, and requiring production/influence upkeep... or the population is reduced to the maximum. Maybe that requires an "Arcologies" building on the Planet. (so some specials aren't overexploited)


For a Tall strategy to be good however, it also needs to include the tension in a Wide Strategy... which is that Planets are a resource you compete over with other empires, they are difficult to build/destroy but easy to take/have taken from you.

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labgnome
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Re: Make viable the Tall strategy

#25 Post by labgnome »

Oberlus wrote: Fri Sep 04, 2020 12:41 pm LienRag, did you read OP before begining this verbal incontinency?
Anyways, if you want to ask "what's a tall strategy?" you need less than 200 words.
That's rude and unnecessary.
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Oberlus
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Re: Make viable the Tall strategy

#26 Post by Oberlus »

Krikkitone wrote: Fri Sep 04, 2020 2:35 pm For a Tall strategy to work there needs to be
1. A Way to Invest in the output of a planet without limit (or almost without limit..similar to how you can invest in Colony ships.. to the limit)
2. Drastically increase max population of planets without game elements that increase growth rate on ALL planets

For #1 say "Automated Factories" was a building... an expensive building that you could build as many times as you wanted on a planet and increased the production of the planet by a fixed amount, but required influence/research upkeep or they are destroyed.

Or #2.. Allow populations to grow above the "maximum" on worlds of the proper habitability, but at the same slow rate as when it is near the maximum, and requiring production/influence upkeep... or the population is reduced to the maximum. Maybe that requires an "Arcologies" building on the Planet. (so some specials aren't overexploited)


For a Tall strategy to be good however, it also needs to include the tension in a Wide Strategy... which is that Planets are a resource you compete over with other empires, they are difficult to build/destroy but easy to take/have taken from you.
For #2, terraforming could be good, by increasing the difference of max. pop betwren envs. Theres a recent thread on that somewhere. /Edit: here I guess./

To keep the tension on planets and not depend (only) on repeatable buildings, we could add something to increase max pop or size of planets by destroying or tying somehow nearby outposts.
Fluff could be about building habitable moons around the boosted planet or extracting resources from uninhabited planets (outposts). Or about exploiting colonies (and then it's not Tall but Centralized, somehow in between Tall and Wide).

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