Recalibrating Population & Production

Creation, discussion, and balancing of game content such as techs, buildings, ship parts.

Moderators: Oberlus, Committer, Oberlus, Committer

Message
Author
yandonman
Creative Contributor
Posts: 699
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 12:32 am

Re: Recalibrating Population & Production

#106 Post by yandonman » Thu Jan 31, 2013 5:24 am

Does anyone use the bar graphs? I personally don't. I only ever look at that panel to change the focus.
Code released under GPL 2.0. Content released under GPL 2.0 and Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0.

User avatar
Geoff the Medio
Programming, Design, Admin
Posts: 12487
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 1:33 am
Location: Munich

Re: Recalibrating Population & Production

#107 Post by Geoff the Medio » Thu Jan 31, 2013 6:34 am

yandonman wrote:I only ever look at that panel to change the focus.
I was planning / thinking of moving the focus droplist outside the subpanel. Current focus selection seems important enough to always show.

User avatar
Sloth
Content Scripter
Posts: 685
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2007 12:28 am

Re: Recalibrating Population & Production

#108 Post by Sloth » Thu Jan 31, 2013 6:39 am

yandonman wrote:Does anyone use the bar graphs?
I don't.
Geoff the Medio wrote:
yandonman wrote:I only ever look at that panel to change the focus.
I was planning / thinking of moving the focus droplist outside the subpanel. Current focus selection seems important enough to always show.
That sounds like a good idea.
All released under the GNU GPL 2.0 and Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 licences.

User avatar
Vezzra
Release Manager, Design
Posts: 5066
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:56 pm
Location: Sol III

Re: Recalibrating Population & Production

#109 Post by Vezzra » Thu Jan 31, 2013 9:27 am

yandonman wrote:Does anyone use the bar graphs? I personally don't. I only ever look at that panel to change the focus.
Same for me. I mean, sure, the bars are nice to look at, but (at least for me) they don't really convey the information better than the numbers do.

User avatar
Geoff the Medio
Programming, Design, Admin
Posts: 12487
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 1:33 am
Location: Munich

Re: Recalibrating Population & Production

#110 Post by Geoff the Medio » Thu Jan 31, 2013 9:46 am

Vezzra wrote:[bars] don't really convey the information better than the numbers do.
The bars are more useful for seeing the differences that will result from changing focus.

User avatar
Vezzra
Release Manager, Design
Posts: 5066
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:56 pm
Location: Sol III

Re: Recalibrating Population & Production

#111 Post by Vezzra » Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:08 am

Geoff the Medio wrote:The bars are more useful for seeing the differences that will result from changing focus.
Granted, but if it comes down to struggle with balance problems because of the need to limit meters to a max of 100 or to sacrifice the bars, I'd choose the latter. Bars might convey that info better, but just displaying numbers still should be sufficiently clear.

User avatar
Geoff the Medio
Programming, Design, Admin
Posts: 12487
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 1:33 am
Location: Munich

Re: Recalibrating Population & Production

#112 Post by Geoff the Medio » Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:21 am

Before removing the bars, I re-suggest considering using bonuses that aren't population dependent, or that are population dependent but capped at a max value so that some point having more population doesn't further increase resource output. Getting more resource output would need to be done by researching and producing or acquiring other things, and would have a population-independent growth rate, making the max value of population not as much of an issue when balancing the max value of resource output.

User avatar
Vezzra
Release Manager, Design
Posts: 5066
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:56 pm
Location: Sol III

Re: Recalibrating Population & Production

#113 Post by Vezzra » Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:55 am

Geoff the Medio wrote:...I re-suggest considering using bonuses that aren't population dependent, or that are population dependent but capped at a max value...
As in: increases industry by one tenth of the planets population, but not more than 10 (for example)?

User avatar
Bigjoe5
Designer and Programmer
Posts: 2058
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2007 6:33 pm
Location: Orion

Re: Recalibrating Population & Production

#114 Post by Bigjoe5 » Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:23 am

yandonman wrote:Does anyone use the bar graphs? I personally don't. I only ever look at that panel to change the focus.
Of course I use the bar graphs. Are you saying you mouse-over the resource icons to see the new target meter values every time you change focus?
Warning: Antarans in dimensional portal are closer than they appear.

User avatar
Geoff the Medio
Programming, Design, Admin
Posts: 12487
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 1:33 am
Location: Munich

Re: Recalibrating Population & Production

#115 Post by Geoff the Medio » Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:47 am

Vezzra wrote:
Geoff the Medio wrote:...I re-suggest considering using bonuses that aren't population dependent, or that are population dependent but capped at a max value...
As in: increases industry by one tenth of the planets population, but not more than 10 (for example)?
Yes, though probably slightly rephrased. Not sure how best to say it to make clear that the increase is at most 10, rather than the final value of the meter is at most 10.

User avatar
em3
Vacuum Dragon
Posts: 599
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 2:51 pm

Re: Recalibrating Population & Production

#116 Post by em3 » Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:49 am

I was pondering replacing current bar graphs so that they would show (current/target) * 100%, but that could end up misleading, as the point would be to minimize the graph length (as it would be inversely proportional to target value). :?
[...] for Man has earned his right to hold this planet against all comers, by virtue of occasionally producing someone totally batshit insane. - Randall Munroe, title text to xkcd #556

yandonman
Creative Contributor
Posts: 699
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 12:32 am

Re: Recalibrating Population & Production

#117 Post by yandonman » Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:43 pm

Bigjoe5 wrote: Of course I use the bar graphs. Are you saying you mouse-over the resource icons to see the new target meter values every time you change focus?
Not even. I look at the research number at the top of the screen. If I'm running low, go find a large population planet without construction bonuses and flip it to research focus. Watch the research number at the top.

And, there's nothing I can do to hasten to focus change, so there's no point in watching it. Watched kettle never boils and such.
Code released under GPL 2.0. Content released under GPL 2.0 and Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0.

User avatar
Dilvish
AI Lead, Programmer
Posts: 4768
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2012 6:25 pm

Re: Recalibrating Population & Production

#118 Post by Dilvish » Thu Jan 31, 2013 5:12 pm

Geoff the Medio wrote:
Vezzra wrote:
Geoff the Medio wrote:...I re-suggest considering using bonuses that aren't population dependent, or that are population dependent but capped at a max value...
As in: (for example)?
Yes, though probably slightly rephrased. Not sure how best to say it to make clear that the increase is at most 10, rather than the final value of the meter is at most 10.
I think the mere addition of "by ... +" makes it quite clear, as in "increases industry by one tenth of the planets population, but not by more than +10." (emphasis to highlight added text)
em3 wrote:I was pondering replacing current bar graphs so that they would show (current/target) * 100%, but that could end up misleading, as the point would be to minimize the graph length (as it would be inversely proportional to target value). :?
I think that ( (target-current)/target) * 100% might have the problem you're concerned about, but the actual calculation you cite would not, and I think it would be a fine one.

Though I myself would probably prefer to just have the focus changing widget in the main panel and forego the bars entirely, just using mouse-over the numbers to get detail when I want it. Normally hidden bars available to them what wants 'em I can put up with though :)
If I provided any code, scripts or other content here, it's released under GPL 2.0 and CC-BY-SA 3.0

unjashfan
Creative Contributor
Posts: 175
Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2011 8:08 am

Re: Recalibrating Population & Production

#119 Post by unjashfan » Thu Jan 31, 2013 7:29 pm

The bars are more useful for seeing the differences that will result from changing focus.
Why not replace the bar graph with a couple numbers that show current production, target production, and the difference of current and target production? This way the differences resulting from changing focus is displayed as a number. Maybe something like this:

Current Research: 20
Target Research: 5
Difference: -15

I think someone can look at this and say: "OK, I'm losing 15 research here in the long run if I switch focus permanently."

User avatar
Geoff the Medio
Programming, Design, Admin
Posts: 12487
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 1:33 am
Location: Munich

Re: Recalibrating Population & Production

#120 Post by Geoff the Medio » Thu Jan 31, 2013 7:47 pm

unjashfan wrote:...replace the bar graph with [three] numbers [and lengthy text on three lines]
There needs to be as few numbers as possible in the UI to avoid unnecessary extra visual clutter and perceived complexity, so at most there could be

(ICON) Current / Target

when expanded, and

(ICON) Current

when not.
yandonman wrote:And, there's nothing I can do to hasten to focus change, so there's no point in watching it. Watched kettle never boils and such.
The point is to see whether a particular planet is going to benefit much from the focus change. If it's a very production-heavy research-poor species, this should be evident in the size of the target meter bars when changing focus.

That said, an "auto boost X resource output" button on the main map toolbar could be added. This would work like auto colonize / invade, and would automatically pick a planet to switch to X focus for the player. Would likely solve many of the complaints and requests for planet management tools, would be useful for players (like you?) who change focus to bump up a research output indiscriminately, and shouldn't be too hard to implement.

Post Reply