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Re: Ship and ship parts balancing and flavor ideas

Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2014 8:48 am
by Geoff the Medio
Different log bases produce results that are just different by scale factors out front.

eg. log2(x) = 3*log8(x) = ln(x)/ln(2)

Since FO script only support natural log (ln = log base e), it's explicitly just a matter of picking the scale factor anyway.

If you want a different shape, consider square root (with an appropriate scale factor).

Re: Ship and ship parts balancing and flavor ideas

Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2014 11:52 am
by OllyG
If you want this to be something just for robotic fleets, why not make it a property of the hull rather than a ship part? They could be banned from having standard shields.

Seems silly to have this and then let players build robotic fleets which aren't networked.

Should allies network with each other? (when allies are in.)

Re: Ship and ship parts balancing and flavor ideas

Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2014 4:50 pm
by Dilvish
yandonman wrote:log2(N)... trails off too fast for my taste. I ... settled on log 1.2 (N)...capped that at N-1, and then further capped that at 25 (to prevent invincibility).... Does this feel about right?
Several of the later hulls in this line have multiple internal slots, so it looks to me like you could have a shield plus this effect, so slower growth closer to log base 2 seems more appropriate and the cap would have to be much lower than 25 to not make your fleets invincible.

If you could revise the patch to something between log 1.2 and log 2 I'll try to give it a test run one of these days. Lately I haven't had a lot of time for testing things I'd like to test, though, so no promises when. Perhaps we can get Matt and others to help test it too.

Re: Ship and ship parts balancing and flavor ideas

Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2014 5:48 pm
by Geoff the Medio
I suggest again square root, scaled appropriately. It rises less sharply and continues increasing more gradually for larger numbers...

Re: Ship and ship parts balancing and flavor ideas

Posted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 5:08 am
by yandonman
(Graphics card on home machine died, new computer en route. Merry Christmas to me. Content development likely delayed ~1 week)

My current implementation/thinking is this. If someone wants to toss these into the above patch and try that out in the short term and see how it plays/balances, that'd be cool.
  • Growth function:
    • Goals:
      • No more than +1 shield per networked ship.
      • Reach cap somewhere around 100 ships. - 100 is realtively arbitrary.
    • Function candidates: - I'd be comfortable with either at this point in time.
      • =min(min( (N-1), sqr-root(N-1) * 3 ), 25)
      • =min(min( (N-1), ln(N) * 5.5), 25)
  • Hard cap at 25 - prevent invincibility
  • Added the generic shield stackinggroup to the effect. - Simplifies implementation. Prevents invincibility by stacking multiple networked shields and/or in conjunction with regular shield parts.
  • Made buildtime = 4
  • Cost: 70 + tax

Re: Ship and ship parts balancing and flavor ideas

Posted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 10:00 am
by yandonman
Above changes implemented in this patch.

Re: Ship and ship parts balancing and flavor ideas

Posted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 5:15 pm
by Dilvish
I'll try to get around to a test game or 2 with that patch this weekend

Re: Ship and ship parts balancing and flavor ideas

Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 3:54 am
by yandonman
My notes on a few play-throughs:
* Organics are still more powerful
* Has a power spike at early mid game, and then another at early late game.
* Is weak in the early game as well as late game.
* Fractals are still more powerful

Re: Ship and ship parts balancing and flavor ideas

Posted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 4:39 pm
by yandonman
Any update here?

Re: Ship and ship parts balancing and flavor ideas

Posted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 4:45 pm
by MatGB
Getting my head clear with some of the testing.

And, um, getting distracted playign with Dilvish's starnames code and tryign to sort out my en.txt patch.

I think, on balance, that organics and asteroids are roughly balanced against each other, with the heavy asteroid being far overpowered for the stage of the game it can appear in but being, currently, needed to balance the overpowered against everything else organic/xeno line.

I need to write that up properly and do some cost analysis for what I'd do with the fractals &c.

We definitely need to either up the costs of organics, asteroids and energy lines or reduce the costs of the other lines, I'm inclined to do a bit of both with more emphasis on increases on the problematic hulls but with some decreases on the basic and robotic hulls.

Re: Ship and ship parts balancing and flavor ideas

Posted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 2:43 am
by yandonman
... wrt the Robotic Interface: Shields part?

Re: Ship and ship parts balancing and flavor ideas

Posted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 2:01 pm
by unjashfan
overpowered against everything else organic/xeno line
I think this is the case not only because these hulls are extremely easy to spam, but also for the fact that they can navigate the map very quickly (even more so with fractals since they're faster). The production cost definitely needs some kind of increase, but slowing these guys down might be a good way to make them less OP.

For the constructed hulls, most of them never even get unlocked since the hulls, the corresponding techs, and shipyards are ridiculously expensive. After a couple playthroughs with various settings, I find that it's pretty much always easier to unlock the fractals, PP and RP wise. I think the techs/hulls can be separated into 3 branches based on size. Here's a possible tech setup (also has suggested RP cost changes):
ContHullChart.png
ContHullChart.png (17.5 KiB) Viewed 1650 times
Here's some hull changes to go with the techs (haven't been tested since I don't know if the AI will break):
ContHullChart2.png
ContHullChart2.png (26.17 KiB) Viewed 1650 times

Re: Ship and ship parts balancing and flavor ideas

Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 8:09 am
by yandonman
Can we commit this patch?

Re: Ship and ship parts balancing and flavor ideas

Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 8:49 am
by Geoff the Medio
yandonman wrote:Can we commit this patch?
After Dilvish or others comment on testing it, maybe.

Re: Ship and ship parts balancing and flavor ideas

Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 3:18 pm
by Dilvish
I had gotten distracted by the starnames thing and other matters, sorry. I've started a game now with the patch, I'll try to get a couple games in by the coming weekend