Supply

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Dilvish
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Re: Supply

#46 Post by Dilvish »

Geoff the Medio wrote:It definitely needs to be implemented differently,
howabout in one of the baseline techs that all empires have? There is unfortunately no baseline Construction tech, but the baseline ship tech Galactic Exploration seems like a reasonable home to me.
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Geoff the Medio
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Re: Supply

#47 Post by Geoff the Medio »

Dilvish wrote:howabout in one of the baseline techs that all empires have? There is unfortunately no baseline Construction tech, but the baseline ship tech Galactic Exploration seems like a reasonable home to me.
No objection...

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Sloth
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Re: Supply

#48 Post by Sloth »

Geoff the Medio wrote:That said, there could also be a "Skyhook" building or "Skyhooks" tech that lets gas giants provide more supply range, similar to a space elevator on main-ring planets. (edit: maybe not worth having a separate building... It'd probably be unlocked at the same place, and do the same thing as an elevator... might as well just call it the same: "elevator" /edit).
At the moment Space Elevators can't be build on outposts, because they have a population restriction. I haven't thought really hard about it, but is there any reason for this restriction?
Dilvish wrote:
Geoff the Medio wrote:It definitely needs to be implemented differently,
howabout in one of the baseline techs that all empires have? There is unfortunately no baseline Construction tech, but the baseline ship tech Galactic Exploration seems like a reasonable home to me.
Ok, here is the next update:
1. The planet size boni are now placed in the galactic exploration tech.
2. Gas Giants now have a -1 malus to supply (Asteroids are still at +/- 0).
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OllyG
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Re: Supply

#49 Post by OllyG »

Colonies and outposts with 0 supply should refuel ships in the same system and should be supply connected with other colonies and outposts in the same system. Regardless of how it used to be.

It would be good to be able to build a supply station in an empty system. Or have a ship part that adds supply. Or a one shot ship part (like the outpost part) that can make a supply depot. It would cost more and be harder to research than the outpost part, but would have similar supply range to an outpost (could be one less but be after two techs that give +1, so it gives 1 supply when outposts give 2). It would be spaceship with zero starlane speed. Could use the outpost base hull or could be the same as the ship that made it, so have armour, shields and weapons (but 0 speed).

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Geoff the Medio
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Re: Supply

#50 Post by Geoff the Medio »

Sloth wrote:Ok, here is the next update:
This change seems to have been reverted...
Geoff the Medio wrote:The interstellar logistics description says it gives +4, but it actually gives +3 when supply focused.
Otherwise, seems OK.

I wonder about how differences between average, great, and ultimate supply are implemented. Currently it's an always-active varying bonus to max supply. Would it be more or less interesting to make the differing bonuses mostly only take effect when using logistics focus? So every average-or-better species gets +1 fixed, and great and ultimate get an additional +1 or +2 when on logistics focus. Just wondering...

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Sloth
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Re: Supply

#51 Post by Sloth »

Geoff the Medio wrote:I wonder about how differences between average, great, and ultimate supply are implemented. Currently it's an always-active varying bonus to max supply. Would it be more or less interesting to make the differing bonuses mostly only take effect when using logistics focus? So every average-or-better species gets +1 fixed, and great and ultimate get an additional +1 or +2 when on logistics focus. Just wondering...
Only taking effect when using the logistic focus is a bad idea imho, because:

1. A species trait that depends on a single technology to have any effect sounds strange. New players wouldn't suspect that.
2. It would make great and ultimate supply a very narrow trait for species. In most games i never use the logistic focus at all and even when used the normal bonus could be enough.
3. Bad supply wouldn't be in line with great and ultimate supply which could be confusing.
Geoff the Medio wrote:
Sloth wrote:Ok, here is the next update:
This change seems to have been reverted...
Geoff the Medio wrote:The interstellar logistics description says it gives +4, but it actually gives +3 when supply focused.
This change hasn't been implemented yet, as far as i know.

But here you go:
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Geoff the Medio
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Re: Supply

#52 Post by Geoff the Medio »

Sloth wrote:In most games i never use the logistic focus at all and even when used the normal bonus could be enough.
That seems like a reason to make such a change... If supply is too easy to get, such that you don't even bother using the focus dedicated to giving more of it, then what's the point of having such a focus option? I suppose there are galaxy settings where it becomes more important, but why not require a few planets to be dedicated to supply propagation in most games?
Geoff the Medio wrote:The interstellar logistics description says it gives +4, but it actually gives +3 when supply focused.
This change hasn't been implemented yet, as far as i know.
In species.txt:

Code: Select all

        EffectsGroup
            scope = Source
            activation = Focus "FOCUS_LOGISTICS"
            accountinglabel = "SHP_INTSTEL_LOG"
            effects = SetMaxSupply Value + 3
The +3 is also what I see in game...

Regardless, I suppose the timing of applying these changes is up to Dilvish.

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Dilvish
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Re: Supply

#53 Post by Dilvish »

Geoff the Medio wrote:I suppose there are galaxy settings where it becomes more important,
In low planets galaxies I use logistics settings on at least one planet pretty much every game.
but why not require a few planets to be dedicated to supply propagation in most games?
I think it would be a pretty tricky thing to get the supply constraints arranged so that you needed a few planets dedicated to it in most games without totally hosing over low planet density galaxies. That's one of the remaining big gaps in the AI (though lots of small gaps still hehe) -- the AI will assess expected supply connectivity (under the current simpler rules) when assessing invasion or colonization opportunities, but does not yet deal with logistics settings and/or building elevators. I suppose it's about time for me to get at least some basic AI coverage of those, since I'm finding them actually necessary in games; I'll have to see when I can get enough time.
Regardless, I suppose the timing of applying these changes is up to Dilvish.
Thanks. For now I think we should continue with this approach of testing & revising the patch focused on human playability/enjoyment so that it is fairly stable, and then assess how the current AI is doing under it. In the meantime I'll still be keeping in mind how to best add more supply planning mechanisms to the AI.
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OllyG
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Re: Supply

#54 Post by OllyG »

Geoff the Medio wrote: ... If supply is too easy to get, such that you don't even bother using the focus dedicated to giving more of it, then what's the point of having such a focus option? I suppose there are galaxy settings where it becomes more important, but why not require a few planets to be dedicated to supply propagation in most games?
I think the problem is that each extra point of supply is a really huge bonus. Once you've got 3 supply colonies 6 systems apart are in supply range. But your colony ship had to go 3 systems beyond supply range to get there.
Instead of adding the supply of both colonies and meeting in the middle, we could try a system where a colony has to within the supply radius of another to be connected. (It is harder to describe.) If colony A has 3 supply and colony B has 2 supply they are currently connected if 5 systems apart. With my idea they would only be connected when 3 systems away.
Another problem is that currently poor supply is a very big penalty at the start of the game, which my above 'solution' probably makes worse.
My second idea is to allow supply to step up in increments of 0.5 rather than 1. If two colonies with 1.5 supply are 3 systems apart they would be connected. Having other fractions wouldn't be good but half can be drawn on the map and it will be quite intuitive that two halves can connect. Currently when an enemy fleet is blockading a system the supply lines from other systems go halfway to the blockade and it is obvious that the blockaded system is not supply connected.

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MatGB
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Re: Supply

#55 Post by MatGB »

OllyG wrote: My second idea is to allow supply to step up in increments of 0.5 rather than 1. If two colonies with 1.5 supply are 3 systems apart they would be connected. Having other fractions wouldn't be good but half can be drawn on the map and it will be quite intuitive that two halves can connect.
I quite like this idea, yes, it'd make Poor/Large scriptable and allow linkups in a way that make sense.

I think the reason blockades systems show is in part so there's a visual clue to find the planets that have wasted PP, which is fairly common to have several, so if there was a different way to display that then having blockaded planets show zero supply would make half supply planets doable, etc.
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MatGB
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Re: Supply

#56 Post by MatGB »

Minor glitch in the Space Elevator script in the patch, it gives a bonus to Huge twice and Medium never, looks like a copy/paste error, I've fixed it on my copy.

So far, AI seems to be handling it fine with minor glitch of a few outposts placed on gas giants that have no purpose other than supply AFAICS—I think the AI overuses outposts for supply anyway, perhaps instead promote building of space elevators at the edges of the domain?

Slightly worried that it's making Laenfa even more powerful against other AIs than they already were, but I think the main cause there is their stealth and the need for Neutron Scanners to invade, this is merely giving them more expand room than before.

Might be worth considering giving Egassem Great Supply (or even Ultimate), don't think it'll stop them being terrible but it might help the AI controlling them expand far enough to build a single colony on occasions...
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Sloth
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Re: Supply

#57 Post by Sloth »

MatGB wrote:Minor glitch in the Space Elevator script in the patch, it gives a bonus to Huge twice and Medium never, looks like a copy/paste error, I've fixed it on my copy.
Fixed!
MatGB wrote:Slightly worried that it's making Laenfa even more powerful against other AIs than they already were, but I think the main cause there is their stealth and the need for Neutron Scanners to invade, this is merely giving them more expand room than before.

Might be worth considering giving Egassem Great Supply (or even Ultimate), don't think it'll stop them being terrible but it might help the AI controlling them expand far enough to build a single colony on occasions...
I think the main problem is that good population is so very good and bad population so very bad. Laenfa now have Average Supply and Egassem Great Supply.
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Geoff the Medio
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Re: Supply

#58 Post by Geoff the Medio »

Any further test results or concerns?

If the AI handles these changes generally OK, and it's just a matter of balance tweaks, should it be committed?

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MatGB
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Re: Supply

#59 Post by MatGB »

I think so, yes, I've been playing with it for ages now, many games, and I've not noticed the AI having a major problem with the exception of sometimes trying to extend supply using gas giant outposts. Obviously, it's not taking advantage of the new traits, but it doesn't seem to be hurt too badly.

One possible issue though, obviously I'm not reporting on my playtesting, not observing—I have problems on occasion capturing enemy homeworlds very early as if they're out of supply they normally remain so, it's hard to see if an AI has problems with this as it's too early in the game to have eyes, but it's an edge case I think.

I vote commit, I like what it does to the game. There remain a few species that don't have a trait assigned, someone'll need to go through and give average supply to any species without anything as if there's no trait you get no bonus, but beyond that...
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Sloth
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Re: Supply

#60 Post by Sloth »

MatGB wrote:There remain a few species that don't have a trait assigned, someone'll need to go through and give average supply to any species without anything as if there's no trait you get no bonus, but beyond that...
All species in species.txt have a supply traid assigned, but the Derthrean were missing entries in their description. This is fixed in the new patch.
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