Next steps

Creation, discussion, and balancing of game content such as techs, buildings, ship parts.

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Prokonsul Piotrus
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#16 Post by Prokonsul Piotrus »

Since there seems to be little activity in this area, here is something to push matters forward: I designed a strictly unofficial tool for work on tech tree development on FO wiki. I believe wiki tech is perfect for designing multilayer stuff like techtree.

If you are unfamiliar with Wiki technology, please familiarize yourself with it before making changes - we must be careful not to mess up official FO Wiki. I recommend making all unofficial additions on User:pages.

Best place to learn wiki is Wikipedia sandbox, since FO Wiki is based on the same engine. Wiki sandbox has tutorials and other stuff to facilitate the process of learning (although honestly it is an overkill since Wiki is very intuitively and easy). Good tip for starters: registering is not requited but gives you access to some nifty tools.
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Aquitaine
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#17 Post by Aquitaine »

I will be contacting moderators tomorrow.

-Aq
Surprise and Terror! I am greeted by the smooth and hostile face of our old enemy, the Hootmans! No... the Huge-glands, no, I remember, the Hunams!

Aquitaine
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#18 Post by Aquitaine »

The moderators are (drum roll):

Bastian-Bux: Learning
Powercrazy: Construction
Tyreth: Growth
Solartrix: Economics
Aquitaine: Production

Please email me ([email protected]) and let me know that you do, in fact, want the job (as some of you didn't indicate a preference as to categories) or if you didn't volunteer yet but you want to, as I would be happy to surrender my category and simply butt in on all of them. :)

Aq
Surprise and Terror! I am greeted by the smooth and hostile face of our old enemy, the Hootmans! No... the Huge-glands, no, I remember, the Hunams!

drek
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suggestion:

#19 Post by drek »

Not certain where to stick this, doesn't really fit into any category:

I was thinking we might have some "universe techs" that start off as being "researched" at the beginning of the game to spawn off some simple effects.

Specifically, I'm thinking a tech that sums each world's Industry, Mining, and Population and uses that number to determine the chance of a planet gaining a "Polluted" special. Another building (or tech) in the actual tree could be used to clean up/protect against the polluted special.

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Prokonsul Piotrus
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#20 Post by Prokonsul Piotrus »

Since I have some free time on my hands, I am willing to go over current tech posts, take all posted techs, convert them into XML and post them on my unofficial wiki page. This would have the benefit of combining the most important part of what is now 2-5+ pages (and growing) on one wiki page. Each category would have its own page. I don't know about you, but my memory is simply not good enough to keep track of what was posted on several pages, and I belive having it nicely structured on one wiki page would make spotting what was done and what is missing much easier.

Unfortunately nobody has so far spoken a single word about my wiki ideas, and perhaps I will simply waste few hours doing this creating a tool nobody uses. Therefore I ask all category moderators who would like me to go over their threads and do above to post here saying you want me to do it for your cat. In addition I'd ask those mods to make sure that new techs posted in the forums are marked as added to wiki or not, so I (and mods and everybody else who will use the wiki) will know if we should add this to wiki or not.

One more thing. I will attempt to fill all missing things in existing tech (like cost or prerequisite), so our programing team will not have to waste time doing this. In case a tech has an unclear effect definition I will add this into <decription></description> along existing fluff text, so it can be expanded later without again making programming team worry what it means.

Regarding Official Tech Template and proper XML syntanx I have several questions:
a) TYPE is TT_THEORY/TT_APPLICATION/TT_REFINEMENT yes? Can anybody elaborate how do we use refinement in techs?
b) offcial syntax for stuff to go into CATEGORY is...?
c) any numbers for RESEARCH_COST and RESEARCH_TURNS we should keep in mind? I can of course simply leave them blank if they are still unknown, but it would be useful to have general idea for their cost ASAP, I think
d) unlocked_items (ITEMX) are other techs (theories and app for theory, apps for apps) and also buildings/wonders, yes?
e) EFFECTS_GROUP [optional] - I assume stuff like meter modification goes here? How should the syntax look like?
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Geoff the Medio
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#21 Post by Geoff the Medio »

Prokonsul Piotrus wrote: a) TYPE is TT_THEORY/TT_APPLICATION/TT_REFINEMENT yes?
From wiki, for tech XML format:

Param Types:
NAME string
DESCRIPTION string
TYPE TechType
[...]

http://www.freeorion.org/wiki/index.php ... s#TechType
Can anybody elaborate how do we use refinement in techs?
tzlaine (email) wrote:Refinement Techs can however alter BuildingType definitions, which means that a could automatically improve the performance of an Application Tech.
How to do that, I'm not sure. May not be implemented yet.
b) offcial syntax for stuff to go into CATEGORY is...?
tzlaine (email) wrote:They're just plain text. But like tech names and descriptions, they should be referred to with a key string like FOO_CATEGORY, and FOO_CATEGORY will be defined in the proper language file.
d) unlocked_items (ITEMX) are other techs (theories and app for theory, apps for apps) and also buildings/wonders, yes?
Items are buildings (and in ship components in future). Techs have prerequisites indicated with the <prerequisites> tag.
e) EFFECTS_GROUP [optional] - I assume stuff like meter modification goes here? How should the syntax look like?
http://www.freeorion.org/wiki/index.php ... fectsGroup
Last edited by Geoff the Medio on Wed Dec 15, 2004 10:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

drek
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#22 Post by drek »

a) TYPE is TT_THEORY/TT_APPLICATION/TT_REFINEMENT yes? Can anybody elaborate how do we use refinement in techs?
afaik, tzlaine is still working on refinements. Chances are he'll post a tutorial on how to refine once it's ready for prime time.
b) offcial syntax for stuff to go into CATEGORY is...?
I believe it's CATEGORYNAME_CATEGORY in all caps.

Example: GROWTH_CATEGORY
c) any numbers for RESEARCH_COST and RESEARCH_TURNS we should keep in mind? I can of course simply leave them blank if they are still unknown, but it would be useful to have general idea for their cost ASAP, I think
Guess. As for cost, Bastian-Bux has some thoughts somewhere on the Learning Tree. As for time, I'd say 5 turns for the average low level tech, though that might be way too low.
d) unlocked_items (ITEMX) are other techs (theories and app for theory, apps for apps) and also buildings/wonders, yes?
afiak, techs are *not* unlocked, simply use prerequists section to indicate the relationship. Buildings and shipparts are unlocked, as per the documentation.
e) EFFECTS_GROUP [optional] - I assume stuff like meter modification goes here? How should the syntax look like?
Yes.

For the syntax, read the docs on the wiki, it's there near the end of the document. Don't do what I did and just skim the document: the entire thing is peppered with useful infomation and should be printed out for reference and read closely. Reading it closely the first time will save you from asking the same embarrassing questions I asked.

Also, read tzlaine's faq in the other thread. I believe my own techs are probably well formed (or close to it), see them at the end of the construction thread.

It's a bit like a programming language, so....hopefully you know at least a little about programming.


EDIT: Once again, geoff and I post almost simultaniously. This time, he was a bit faster... :P

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Prokonsul Piotrus
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#23 Post by Prokonsul Piotrus »

I finished work on Growth Category, see User:Piotrus/Tech Category Project/Tech Category:Growth

Note that I decided to leave XMLing Effects alone for the time being, I don't feel confident I could produce anything useful here ATM - I will read up on effects and XML syntax and then tackle it (hint: nothing stopping anybody from doing it or writing a guide for this ;p).

I do believe, however, that the resulting article in its present form makes it ieasy to:
* see what tech have been proposed so far (you can also use the wiki table of contents (upper left part of every article) to see a nice tech tree layout)
* see what needs to be fixed in a given tech
* move techs around if necessary and visualise the 'tree' look

There are still 'where to put fluff and notes' problems, and I think it would be a good idea to add a 'allows tech' section to each techs as well, so we can easily see what techs this allows (especially with hypertext) .
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Geoff the Medio
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#24 Post by Geoff the Medio »

Prokonsul Piotrus wrote:...I think it would be a good idea to add a 'allows tech' section to each techs as well
This is not necessary in XML, if that's what you mean. The <prerequisites> tags do the job, and do so somewhat better, as they allow multiple prerequisites for one tech (AND), which is more useful than multiple techs allowing a single other tech (OR).
so we can easily see what techs this allows (especially with hypertext).
Hyperlinks would probably be generated by code in the in-game encyclopedia or tech screen, or could perhaps be put into the description text (not sure if that can be done). Adding <allows> tags would be redundant and probably lead to inconsitencies (unless <allows> are added to allow the aforementioned "OR" functionality, but this isn't what you were talking about).

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Prokonsul Piotrus
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#25 Post by Prokonsul Piotrus »

Geoff the Medio wrote:This is not necessary in XML, if that's what you mean. The <prerequisites> tags do the job, and do so somewhat better, as they allow multiple prerequisites for one tech (AND), which is more useful than multiple techs allowing a single other tech (OR).
Sure, they would be useless duplicates for ingame XML, but they are mighty useful (IMHO) for our current design process. After all, we are humans not comps and may find it a bit hard to use just one way hypertext.
Geoff the Medio wrote:so we can easily see what techs this allows (especially with hypertext).
Hyperlinks would probably be generated by code in the in-game encyclopedia or tech screen, or could perhaps be put into the description text (not sure if that can be done).
Again, they would be useful ingame, but what I am talking about now is a tool for us designers to use in the design process, not actuall programing.
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Geoff the Medio
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#26 Post by Geoff the Medio »

I don't think new tags that don't actually implement new functionality are really worthwhile just to make it easier to cross-reference prerequisites and postrequisite techs for designers. To document tree structure for you own convenience, just make a note in the tech description or alongside the XML...

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#27 Post by drek »

a: the effectsgroups in the above are not well formed. see geoff's example at the end of the Learning thread, or my own construction example. The effects group is the toughest part to write, the section that people would need the most help translating.

b: unless a stunning writer of specultive fiction shows up with a bunch of tech ideas, people should genenerally translate their own techs into XML. This does two things,

1: releaves the work burden on coders and designers
2: more importantly, forces each tech to be *possible* under the effects system. For example,

Code: Select all

 <EffectsGroup>
    pop growth +10%
 </EffectsGroup>
....is not possible. (or rather, you'd say target.currentpopulation+(.10*target.currentpopulation), which isn't desirable) Instead, you'd raise maxhealth by 1 or 3.

Finally, I'm really hoping the author of those cocaine and sex joke techs was not being serious. I don't mind mature uses of narcotics and reproduction issues in the game, but silly school yard "jokes" are not appropriate.

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Prokonsul Piotrus
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#28 Post by Prokonsul Piotrus »

drek wrote:a: the effectsgroups in the above are not well formed. see geoff's example at the end of the Learning thread, or my own construction example. The effects group is the toughest part to write, the section that people would need the most help translating.

b: unless a stunning writer of specultive fiction shows up with a bunch of tech ideas, people should genenerally translate their own techs into XML. This does two things,

1: releaves the work burden on coders and designers
2: more importantly, forces each tech to be *possible* under the effects system. For example,

Code: Select all

 <EffectsGroup>
    pop growth +10%
 </EffectsGroup>
....is not possible. (or rather, you'd say target.currentpopulation+(.10*target.currentpopulation), which isn't desirable) Instead, you'd raise maxhealth by 1 or 3.
As I said, I have little experience with XML. I will try to learn it but I hope that sb out there with better XML knowledge will take care of that part. I am willing to sort through existing posts and put them on wiki like I shown. My primary goal is to make those techs easily readable, so we know what was posted and can among other things can deal with stuff like.:
drek wrote: Finally, I'm really hoping the author of those cocaine and sex joke techs was not being serious. I don't mind mature uses of narcotics and reproduction issues in the game, but silly school yard "jokes" are not appropriate.
Yep. Plz note I take no responsibility for what was posted in the forums, I am just collecting the techs to show why using wiki is better. Feel free to edit those techs out of wiki or change their names or whaterver.
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Getix
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Re: Next steps

#29 Post by Getix »

Anonymous wrote:
Aquitaine wrote:
Record the number of RP you produce at:
- Turn 1
- Turn 10
- Turn 25
- Turn 50
- Turn 75
- Turn 90
- Turn 100
Balanced Focus


Turn 1 : 80
Turn 10: 100
Turn 25: 155
Turn 50: 324
Turn 75: 661
Turn 90: 939
Turn 100: 1199

Hopes that help ;)
It was me, just forgot to log in...

I did not meet any alien race and my homeworld was pumpin' out Colony Ships only, no MarkI/II/III or anything else...
Getix "The Cromist", (20, 90, Italy, MI)
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Prokonsul Piotrus
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#30 Post by Prokonsul Piotrus »

Over the past few days I have been working on a my own tech tree for FO. It is far from finished, but perhaps some of the tech ideas there may be useful for you. Anyway, I see no point in keeping it to myself, especially as the discussion here seems to be dying of - maybe this will sparkle a few comments.
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