Megafauna maturation and doing more with monsters

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MatGB
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Megafauna maturation and doing more with monsters

#1 Post by MatGB »

I'm testing Sloth's PR "Controlled Mega-Fauna Maturation" which is based on ideas discussed on various threads here. A part of me loves it, but aspects of the implementation just aren't right and are basically micromanagement ramped up to 11.

As proposed, there is a Megafauna Maturation Pen building that can only be built on planets (including outposts) that have a monster nest. This increases the rate that monsters spawn and gives you a chance of getting tier 2 monsters from it. I have no problem, whatsoever, with the effects, it might need some balancing but I think the idea is fine.

However, I intensely dislike that the building has to be built everywhere, as it a) goes against the design philosophy of the game and b) shows me just how bad my memory is (I just found a kraken nest without one that I've had an outpost on for over 100 turns meaning I've been losing out on beasties). So I'm going to change it so that you build one, central, building that that then affects multiple nests.

I have various ideas and want some feedback, so.

Idea 1) One central building, relatively expensive, affects all nests in supply as currently, nice and simple.

Idea 2) Same as above, but then each building only applies to one type of monster and has to be built in a system with a nest of that type

Idea 3) Same as either 1 or 2, but the building only works if the planet is set to an appropriate focus, probably Growth, thus balancing the extra beasties with the loss of output from a world.

Idea 4) Extra techs allow for different things to happen, so you could have a research bonus based on the number of nests you've got if you're on Research focus, a speed boost could be given to all monsters in Supply (because, frankly, Juggernauts need it if they're going to be in any way useful offensively).

Obviously, these ideas aren't all mutually exclusive, but I'm not sure which ones to go for and which ones are worth the effort, I'm almost certainly going to push Idea 1 as soon as I've time to rewrite the code and test it as a basic level thing anyway, simply because a basic implementation is something we could do with feedback on before we add extra refinements (note, not going into the next release regardless giving us a whole cycle to balance it properly).

Thoughts?
Mat Bowles

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Vezzra
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Re: Megafauna maturation and doing more with monsters

#2 Post by Vezzra »

MatGB wrote:However, I intensely dislike that the building has to be built everywhere
I'm not entirely convinced that this is a problem in this particular case, because we're not really dealing with a "build everywhere" building here. A "build everywhere" building is something that you might have reason to build on all/most/too many of your colonies literally, not one you might want to build on each colony that provides a certain strategic resource (which is what monster nests are in this case). Unless that strategic resource is so common that you would end up producing that building on a lot of colonies of course. However, are monster nests really that common, even on high monsters setting?

I've to admit that I never play high monsters, so I don't know how frequent monster nests get with that setting, but with medium monsters those nests are rare enough that having to build the maturation pen at each nest doesn't seem to make that a "build everywhere" building.
Idea 1) One central building, relatively expensive, affects all nests in supply as currently, nice and simple.
I'm a bit hesistant with that one. Our solution for avoiding "build everywhere" buildings can't be to turn each building into something that has empire-wide effect. That is nice and proper for some, but shouldn't be the rule (which is why I like some ideas we've been throwing around concerning buildings like the IC so much).
Idea 3) Same as either 1 or 2, but the building only works if the planet is set to an appropriate focus, probably Growth, thus balancing the extra beasties with the loss of output from a world.
Hm, if we can combine this idea with 2 (at least one building per monster type), then it starts to grow on me. I'd still prefer requiring that building at every monster nest, but if that's really too much micromanagenemt on high monsters setting, then I'd prefer to have one maturation pen per monster type and having to set a colony with a monster nest to a "breeding" focus or something like that. This of course will require a full colony instead of just an outpost.
Idea 4) Extra techs allow for different things to happen, so you could have a research bonus based on the number of nests you've got if you're on Research focus, a speed boost could be given to all monsters in Supply (because, frankly, Juggernauts need it if they're going to be in any way useful offensively).
Hm, concerning the speed problem just researching a tech seems a bit to easy/simple to me. What about a special (maybe core?) ship part, and if you want monsters with high speed you need one ship with that ship part as part of the same fleet. Kind of a "monster tow boat".

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Sloth
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Re: Megafauna maturation and doing more with monsters

#3 Post by Sloth »

Vezzra wrote:However, are monster nests really that common, even on high monsters setting?

I've to admit that I never play high monsters, so I don't know how frequent monster nests get with that setting, but with medium monsters those nests are rare enough that having to build the maturation pen at each nest doesn't seem to make that a "build everywhere" building.
Maybe this is the problem that really should be fixed. This is the effect in the Kraken hull entry that spawns the nests:

Code: Select all

        EffectsGroup     
            scope = NumberOf number = 2 condition = And [
                Planet
                Planet type = GasGiant
                Not WithinStarlaneJumps jumps = 3 condition = And [
                    System
                    Contains And [
                        Planet
                        OwnedBy affiliation = AnyEmpire
                    ]
                ]
            ]
            activation = Turn high = 2
            effects = AddSpecial name = "KRAKEN_NEST_SPECIAL"
I'm on vacation so i can't test at the moment. Does every kraken spawn 4 kraken nests or 2?
But anyway i think these numbers should be tweaked to sane levels for monsters set to high.
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MatGB
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Re: Megafauna maturation and doing more with monsters

#4 Post by MatGB »

Vezzra wrote:
MatGB wrote:However, I intensely dislike that the building has to be built everywhere
I'm not entirely convinced that this is a problem in this particular case, because we're not really dealing with a "build everywhere" building here. A "build everywhere" building is something that you might have reason to build on all/most/too many of your colonies literally, not one you might want to build on each colony that provides a certain strategic resource (which is what monster nests are in this case). Unless that strategic resource is so common that you would end up producing that building on a lot of colonies of course. However, are monster nests really that common, even on high monsters setting?
Well, OK, it's build everywhere where there's a nest, which wouldn't be something I'd support introducing for, say, the growth specials as it would annoy me too much.

Here's a screenshot:

GAH, forum just hands on upload, anyway, 9 nests within about 10 jumps of my homeworld, 4 of them within 3 jumps of each other (that areas was a bit sticky to clean out with fragile organics)
I've to admit that I never play high monsters, so I don't know how frequent monster nests get with that setting, but with medium monsters those nests are rare enough that having to build the maturation pen at each nest doesn't seem to make that a "build everywhere" building.
I rarely play at that setting (frankly, it was too much in the early game for me, I was fighting the game far more than I was any AIs, two of which near me never got started), we do probably need to tone it down (and we ought to do more testing of the lesser used settings after we make changes as I hadn't realised just how swamping it would be).
Idea 1) One central building, relatively expensive, affects all nests in supply as currently, nice and simple.
I'm a bit hesistant with that one. Our solution for avoiding "build everywhere" buildings can't be to turn each building into something that has empire-wide effect. That is nice and proper for some, but shouldn't be the rule (which is why I like some ideas we've been throwing around concerning buildings like the IC so much).
Have to admit I personally like the mechanic but I can see the drawbacks.

Put it another way, when I mentioned in a different thread I regularly built 10 Megaliths in a game people said that was way too much. I'm on more than 10 Monster Pens in my current game and I haven't really got into the spiral arms yet. I probably won't build many more because the game'll be over, but...
Idea 3) Same as either 1 or 2, but the building only works if the planet is set to an appropriate focus, probably Growth, thus balancing the extra beasties with the loss of output from a world.
Hm, if we can combine this idea with 2 (at least one building per monster type), then it starts to grow on me. I'd still prefer requiring that building at every monster nest, but if that's really too much micromanagenemt on high monsters setting, then I'd prefer to have one maturation pen per monster type and having to set a colony with a monster nest to a "breeding" focus or something like that. This of course will require a full colony instead of just an outpost.
That's why I said Growth, it's sort of a catch all and we're growing monsters instead of something else, but I'm happy to have a new special focus if it's preferred.
Idea 4) Extra techs allow for different things to happen, so you could have a research bonus based on the number of nests you've got if you're on Research focus, a speed boost could be given to all monsters in Supply (because, frankly, Juggernauts need it if they're going to be in any way useful offensively).
Hm, concerning the speed problem just researching a tech seems a bit to easy/simple to me. What about a special (maybe core?) ship part, and if you want monsters with high speed you need one ship with that ship part as part of the same fleet. Kind of a "monster tow boat".
Yup, has similar ideas, but can't figure out details, either you give the speed boost if in the same location but they can go different ways (the way the asteroid flagship does) or they have to 'follow' in some way but it's worth thinking about.

Not sure I'd want it as a core part if we're tying things into the organic line, the Sentient Hull is a fairly involved thing to build, but it could be a good internal part with a better core one.
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Sloth
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Re: Megafauna maturation and doing more with monsters

#5 Post by Sloth »

MatGB wrote:9 nests within about 10 jumps of my homeworld, 4 of them within 3 jumps of each other (that areas was a bit sticky to clean out with fragile organics)
This definitely sounds like the real problem here.
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AndrewW
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Re: Megafauna maturation and doing more with monsters

#6 Post by AndrewW »

Focus setting would be a problem for outposts (say a kraken nest at a gas giant, short of artificial planet...).

For a speed boost, what about researching Mega-Fauna DNA? (probably requires Domesticated), this would allow one to modify the monsters DNA to increase it's speed ,this may require an incubator type of building.

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MatGB
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Re: Megafauna maturation and doing more with monsters

#7 Post by MatGB »

AndrewW wrote:Focus setting would be a problem for outposts (say a kraken nest at a gas giant, short of artificial planet...).
If it's a one-per-species building then I'd make it in the same system as one, probably, but it could in theory be anywhere, not sure I'd want to go that far though, definitely don't want to make it dependent on an expensive tech from a different line.
For a speed boost, what about researching Mega-Fauna DNA? (probably requires Domesticated), this would allow one to modify the monsters DNA to increase it's speed ,this may require an incubator type of building.
That could be interesting and workable, more inclined to go with the ship part idea though.
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Geoff the Medio
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Re: Megafauna maturation and doing more with monsters

#8 Post by Geoff the Medio »

AndrewW wrote:...Mega-Fauna DNA...
Avoid calling it "DNA", as this is a very Earth-centric assumption about microbiology. Instead, prefer something like "Genetics".

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