DESIGN: Learning Category

Creation, discussion, and balancing of game content such as techs, buildings, ship parts.

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PowerCrazy
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#16 Post by PowerCrazy » Fri Dec 10, 2004 12:05 am

BB: I'm fairly sure that we will have some method of speeding research. Either through better research, wonders, government choices, etc. I also assume that this "learning" catergory will be the place for it.
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Geoff the Medio
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#17 Post by Geoff the Medio » Fri Dec 10, 2004 12:16 am

PowerCrazy wrote:BB: I'm fairly sure that we will have some method of speeding research. Either through better research, wonders, government choices, etc. I also assume that this "learning" catergory will be the place for it.
To be clear, there's a distinction between "speeding" research, as in reducing the turns required to research a single tech, and "increasing" research, as in generating more Research Points (RP) across the empire, which allows more techs to be researched simultaneously, though each one still takes the same amount of time.

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#18 Post by LonghornXtreme » Fri Dec 10, 2004 12:19 am

Thanks Tyreth...

NOW I understand the turn limitation. The whole idea is that an empire with greater research can just tackle more projects at the same time... I could see this system working quite nicely... The only problem I could see is that some REALLY distinct plateaus will arise depending on play style, racial modifiers etc... I guess this effect could be desirable, but I'm hoping it doesn't cause everyone to approach their play style the same way.

Now that I finally have a grasp on how the system is going to work... wouldn't it be easier to assign arbitrary RP's to tech's if we could come up with something like this...


Early Game

Early Mid

Late Mid

End game

and under each category have a High tech race, average tech race, low tech race...

THEN figure out how many simultaneous tech projects we think is feasible for each of those 12 categories... I don't know about you... but having to plan for when 20 projects will complete sounds like micro hell even in the end game phase...

once we have that figured out... its much easier to approximate RP costs and RP production if we have figured what a good amount of simultaneous projects is for the different progressions in the game...


If i'm not making any sense holler at me... I'm known to ramble and be incoherent (that's the Texan in me :D ) but don't assume I'm stupid 8)

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Bastian-Bux
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#19 Post by Bastian-Bux » Fri Dec 10, 2004 8:07 am

@longhornextreme:

well, we have an ourobouros here (a snake that bites its own tail).

The other categories will ask us soon: how will the RP curve look like? How much RP can my mid game researches cost?

We can't answer that if we don't have an idea about this ourself.

The way you described it, would be easier, right. But our results (how the RP curve looks) would be delayed till the end, thus slowing all other categories.

Thats why I'd like to wring a general feeling for this curve from our minds. To have a generell envelope, in which we and the other categories can work.

Remember: we/learning define how fast or slow all research is going. Due to learning beeing this meta category we gotta think in the large picture first, and afterwards can go into details. Other categories can afford the luxury to work from small to big.

If all of you disagree on that, just tell me. Its just my weird idea how we could go ^^.

PS: The "feeling/picture" of the curve we develope won't be set in stone of course. It will just be a generell tool for the categories, which later will need finetuning.
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#20 Post by Prokonsul Piotrus » Fri Dec 10, 2004 1:47 pm

I would like to have 'best of both' worlds, i.e. combine the best idea of various 4X games into FO.

RP generation should be influenced by many factors, especially:
* empire population size (yep, more geniuses, or simpler, more scientists)
* empire technological advancement (believe it or not, things like scientific method and computers do make today's work easier)
* empire economy focus (there are times you concentrate on sciences and fuel its budget a lot - and there are times you not, consequences are easy to imagine)

I think that in terms of game mechanics:
* science should be represented by research points (rp)
* rps would be generated in several ways, most important:
** population working in relevant facilities (i-levels, explained later)
** money spend on research
* some techs would increase global rp production, other would allow construction of specialized research i-levels

The money factor would represent the economy thingy - i.e. do you want to invest a lot in science, or do you have other uses for money (ship building, happines rising, infrastructure improvements, etc.). To prevent some gigantic, sudden and short science pumping sprees the max amount of money that can be spend on research should be capped by empire size modified by 'specilized i-levels' - please see my infrastructure levels idea in Construction thread. Simply put, i-level = semi-wonder (one per planet, upgradable).

As I see it, rp generation in the game goes likes this: player's empire increases in planets/population/i-levels. They in turn increase the rp generation. Specialized reasearch i-levels further increase rp generation at cost of pp/other generation. Money can be used to increase rp generation but should provide quick gains (hopefully the HoI turn-number required for tech system will prevent it anyway). Empire size growth is translated into rp growth, with invention speed further kept in check by HoI system to avoid 'singularity-in-game' problem. Some research techs would work like oI computers, reducing global tech costs, other would allow construction of better research dedicated i-levels.

What do u think of that model?
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#21 Post by skdiw » Fri Dec 10, 2004 10:29 pm

@prokonsul: sounds good to me, but we still need Aq to write in detail what learning cat will also entails like trade, espionage, and other game parameters or object. From what I understand, the RP meter is determined by construction so learning determines about of RP per pop; however, it can't be that simple or otherwise learning cat will be very empty.

@BB: Did you try using my formula? or did you not understand it? The formula gives you all the relative cost at any point in game including population growth. You don't need any absolute RPs right now, as people can vote on it latter. And usually from modding other games, people like 5-20 turns for a tech. To change the curve, you just change the exponent so you don't have to discretely change every number for every tech making modding very difficult.

I don't recommend additional muliplier RP for pop. It would be easier just let it be relative to 1. Otherwise, you are just inflating all the costs, which has no real game effects.

I posted several post about how research curve should look like long time ago, but hardly anybody answered so I think we should just pick ourselves. I decided diminishing one is the best. So every race can access any of early basic tech easily, by mid, you have to somewhat pick your strategy, and by late game you have to really focus unless you plan to trade, steal, war, or whatever.

@longhorn: A high tech race will prolly just have a higher multiplier at a particular stage of the game. You can find out the relative advantages of high tech race vs. low tech race numbers using the formula by substuting different n depending on when you are at in the game then just take the ratio to find out how many more tech can a high tech race research in parallel. A continuous relative formula is better than absolute discrete because you don't have to change 200 numbers each time you want to change something.

If you like my research curve, you won't have micro problems. Acutally, you shouldn't have any micro problems at all, which was one of the advantage of the HOI-esque system we adapted.
:mrgreen:

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Geoff the Medio
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#22 Post by Geoff the Medio » Sat Dec 11, 2004 8:44 am

skdiw wrote:...we still need Aq to write in detail what learning cat will also entails like trade, espionage, and other game parameters or object.
Tyreth commented on this (in lieu of Aq), and I'm inclined to agree with him...
Tyreth wrote:Espionage/spying is not in the "learn" category and is scheduled for 0.7. When we reach there it will be assigned an existing category or given its own. For now, assume it doesn't exist.
I also expect that trade within your own empire would be covered by economics, and trade between empires isn't relevant to v0.3.
skdiw wrote:From what I understand, the RP meter is determined by construction so learning determines about of RP per pop; however, it can't be that simple or otherwise learning cat will be very empty.
Here's how it's supposed to work:

Various things in the game (such as buildings, specials, techs) have effects that alter max meter values. The max meter value on a planet for a particular resource, such as Research, determines the maximum possible value of the corresponding current meter value for that planet. The current meter value is a) capped by the max meter value every turn, and b) grows upwards towards the max meter value if its value is less than the max meter value, according to a growth formula:

Meter Change = Current Construction / (10 + Current Resource Meter)

Note that in this formula, the rate at which current meter values grow upwards towards their max meter value is dependent on the Construction meter.

If techs in the Research category want to alter planet Research meters, they should do so mostly by things like:

"+4 Max Research Meter"

If this is written in a tech suggestion, it would probably be assumed to mean "+4 to max research meter on all planets owned by empires which have reserached this tech"

A more interesting tech effect might be:

"+2 Max Research Meter on Planets with a Vigorous Vegetation Special"

Which again would probably be assumed to mean only planets owned by empires that have researched the tech.

If you want the effect of a tech to fire on all planets, it's probly best to specify that explicitly.

Also keep in mind that it's not really necessary for techs to do a lot of increasing of the Research (or other) resource meters. There will be lots of wonder buildings unlocked by techs that do this, and which will provide more interesting condition options relating to where they are built, like what they are built on, what is nearby, etc.

(I'm not sure if these tech design categories are supposed to have building suggestions to be unlocked by techs... It sounds like Aq is planning a separate process for that, though it should be kept in mind when figuring out the total sum of all bonuses.)

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#23 Post by skdiw » Sat Dec 11, 2004 8:33 pm

I was told that MaxMeter is also determined by construction cat.
:mrgreen:

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Geoff the Medio
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#24 Post by Geoff the Medio » Sat Dec 11, 2004 9:24 pm

skdiw wrote:I was told that MaxMeter is also determined by construction cat.
I assume that means you were told the Max Science meter is determined by techs in the Construction category? I don't think that's been specifically disallowed, as Aq hasn't really defined the boundaries of the various categories, but I'd think that most techs that alter the Science meter should be in the Learning category. Who did you talk to, and what did they say exactly?

Also, earlier you talked about an "RP Meter". I'm not sure what this means... as far as I know there is no "RP Meter". There is a "Science Meter", which is used with population to determine Research Points (RP) produced on a planet according to the formula:

RP = (Current Science Meter / 10) * Current Population

Maybe "RP Meter" means the RP produces on a planet or by an empire?

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#25 Post by utilae » Sat Dec 11, 2004 11:30 pm

Geoff the Medio wrote:Also, earlier you talked about an "RP Meter". I'm not sure what this means... as far as I know there is no "RP Meter". There is a "Science Meter", which is used with population to determine Research Points (RP) produced on a planet according to the formula:
There are variables which are the research meter:
CurrentResearch
MaxResearch

As well as one called ScienceProduction:
ScienceProduction

from: http://www.freeorion.org/wiki/index.php ... troduction

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#26 Post by Geoff the Medio » Sun Dec 12, 2004 2:19 am

utilae wrote:There are variables which are the research meter:
CurrentResearch
MaxResearch

As well as one called ScienceProduction:
ScienceProduction

from: http://www.freeorion.org/wiki/index.php ... troduction
True... Though it looks like tzlaine has removed much of the old design stuff from that page (There is no #Introduction heading now), and added a bunch of claifying info that I requested about specials, buildings, and especially relevant: techs. It might be a good idea to read over the new stuff.

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#27 Post by utilae » Sun Dec 12, 2004 8:36 am

This poor thread, it has no techs, yet the other threads have techs, well lets rectify the situation :).
------------------------------------------

AI Theory (Theory)
"One of the most difficult things to achieve is to construct an artifical form of ourselves. While our bodies are difficult to replicate, it is our minds that prove to be the most difficult to build."

Tech(xml):

Code: Select all

<Tech>
     <name>LRN_AI _THEORY</name>
     <description>LRN_AI _THEORY_DESC</description>
     <type>TT_THEORY</type>
     <category>LEARNING_CATEGORY</category>
     <research_cost>60</research_cost>
     <research_turns>5</research_turns>
</Tech>
English language file for tech:

Code: Select all

LRN_AI _THEORY
AI Theory
LRN_AI _THEORY_DESC
One of the most difficult things to achieve is to construct an artifical form of ourselves. While our bodies are difficult to replicate, it is our minds that prove to be the most difficult to build.

Robot Scientist (Application)
+1 Max Construction Meter
+2 Max Research Meter
Prerequisites: AI Theory (Theory)
"With the creation of AI, and AI robots, it was inevitable that robots should be able to build more robots and make themselves better. The robot scientist is the ultimate achievement in robot construction. Able to advance robotics and AI technology as well as construct the most technically advanced AI robots imaginable."

Tech(xml):

Code: Select all

<Tech>
     <name>LRN_ROBOT_SCIENTIST</name>
     <description>LRN_ROBOT_SCIENTIST_DESC</description>
     <type>TT_APPLICATION</type>
     <category>LEARNING_CATEGORY</category>
     <research_cost>50</research_cost>
     <research_turns>10</research_turns>
     <prerequisites>LRN_AI_THEORY</prerequisites>
     <unlocked_items>
           <Item>
               <type>ITEM_TYPE_BUILDING</type>
               <name>BLD_ROBOT_SCIENTIST</name>
           </Item>
     </unlocked_items>
</Tech>
English language file for tech:

Code: Select all

LRN_ROBOT_SCIENTIST
Robot Scientist
LRN_ROBOT_SCIENTIST_DESC
With the creation of AI, and AI robots, it was inevitable that robots should be able to build more robots and make themselves better. The robot scientist is the ultimate achievement in robot construction. Able to advance robotics and AI technology as well as construct the most technically advanced AI robots imaginable.
Building(xml):

Code: Select all

<BuildingType>
        <name>BLD_ROBOT_SCIENTIST</name>
        <description>BLD_ROBOT_SCIENTIST_DESC</description>
        <build_cost>100</build_cost> 
        <build_time>7</build_time> 
        <maintenance_cost>20</maintenance_cost>
        <EffectsGroup>
                <scope><Condition::Self></scope>
                <effects> 
                    <Effect::SetMeter> 
                       <meter>METER_CONSTRUCTION</meter> 
                       <value>Target.MaxConstruction+1</value> 
                       <max>1</max> 
                    </Effect::SetMeter> 
                    <Effect::SetMeter> 
                       <meter>METER_RESEARCH</meter> 
                       <value>Target.MaxResearch+2</value> 
                       <max>1</max> 
                    </Effect::SetMeter> 
                 </effects> 
        </EffectsGroup>
</BuildingType>
English language file for building:

Code: Select all

BLD_ROBOT_SCIENTIST
Robot Scientist
BLD_ROBOT_SCIENTIST_DESC
With the creation of AI, and AI robots, it was inevitable that robots should be able to build more robots and make themselves better. The robot scientist is the ultimate achievement in robot construction. Able to advance robotics and AI technology as well as construct the most technically advanced AI robots imaginable.                       

Mind Storage (Theory)
"Storing the mind in a machine or computer leads to many possibilities. One such possibility is that a mind can be stored, and then put into a working body sometime in the future. Mind Storage brings organic races closer to machines and may wonder lead to the ability to transfer ones mind from there organic body to a machine body."

Tech(xml):

Code: Select all

<Tech>
     <name>LRN_MIND_STORAGE</name>
     <description>LRN_MIND_STORAGE_DESC</description>
     <type>TT_THEORY</type>
     <category>LEARNING_CATEGORY</category>
     <research_cost>40</research_cost>
     <research_turns>6</research_turns>
</Tech>
English language file for tech:

Code: Select all

LRN_MIND_STORAGE
MIND STORAGE
LRN_MIND_STORAGE_DESC
Storing the mind in a machine or computer leads to many possibilities. One such possibility is that a mind can be stored, and then put into a working body sometime in the future. Mind Storage brings organic races closer to machines and may wonder lead to the ability to transfer ones mind from there organic body to a machine body.

Collective Thought Network (Application)
+3 Max Research Meter
Prerequisites: Mind Storage (Theory)
"By transferring the mind into cyberspace, thousands of minds can act as one, solving problems and making breakthroughs that no single mind could."

Tech(xml):

Code: Select all

<Tech>
     <name>LRN_COLLECTIVE_NET</name>
     <description>LRN_COLLECTIVE_NET_DESC</description>
     <type>TT_APPLICATION</type>
     <category>LEARNING_CATEGORY</category>
     <research_cost>75</research_cost>
     <research_turns>15</research_turns>
     <prerequisites>LRN_MIND_STORAGE</prerequisites>
     <EffectsGroup>
                <scope>
                    <Condition::Focus>
                    <primary>1</primary>
                    <FocusType>FT_SCIENCE</FocusType>
                    </Condition::Focus>
                </scope>
                <effects> 
                    <Effect::SetMeter> 
                       <meter>METER_RESEARCH</meter> 
                       <value>Target.MaxResearch+3</value> 
                       <max>1</max> 
                    </Effect::SetMeter> 
                 </effects> 
        </EffectsGroup>
</Tech>
English language file for tech:

Code: Select all

LRN_COLLECTIVE_NET
Collective Thought Network
LRN_COLLECTIVE_NET_DESC
By transferring the mind into cyberspace, thousands of minds can act as one, solving problems and making breakthroughs that no single mind could.
Last edited by utilae on Thu Dec 16, 2004 1:27 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Zanzibar
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#28 Post by Zanzibar » Sun Dec 12, 2004 1:34 pm

Supercomputational Theory (theory)
+5% to research efficiency.
"A supercomputer in every home, and a robot in every house!"

Planetary Supercomputer (Application)
+25% planetary max research cap
+10% planetary research
+5% "AI Revolt" event
"Insert witty quote here"

Multi-dimensional Planetary supercomputer (refinement)
Requires: Multi-dimensional physics
+35% planetary max research cap
+20% planetary research
+5% "AI Revolt" event
"Placing circuits in other dimensions greatly increases computational power!"

Galactic Supercomputer (Refinement)
+35% Empire research cap
+20% empire-wide research
Allows building of the "Ultimate Pan-galactic supercomputer" wonder; (efectively doubles all research, removes cap)
Image

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#29 Post by Aquitaine » Sun Dec 12, 2004 3:59 pm

PowerCrazy wrote:i.e. If I have a tech that takes 500 RP for 10 turns, then I should be able to research a tech that allows tech to procede at 1000 RP for 5 turns.
I apologize if this has been answered as I'm not fully caught up with this thread, but this is not a major point of this category. We could have techs that reduce time and/or RP required by small percentages (say, 'all Production techs are now 5% faster') but these would be few and far-between (as such techs were very imbalancing in HoI until they got nerfed).
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#30 Post by drek » Sun Dec 12, 2004 6:16 pm

just to get the ball rolling:

btw, below assume when I say "+1 Research" I mean "+1 Max Research". There's no need to improve Current Research via tech or building (unless it's an event).

Age of Exodus Learning Techs
(Age of Exodus is what I call the “First Age”, when the game first begins…the Exploration aspect of a 4x game.)

Peering into Infinity
Cost: 10/rp for 3 turns
Starlane travel makes it possible for eager explorers to visit strange worlds, with sights that defy imagination. Alien environments and black holes are of particular interest. The project funds labs and experiments on the frontier, for the duration of the Age of Exodus.

Effects:
Unlocks Cult of the Black Hole
If *next age tech* is researched, no effect below occurs...:
+3 Research on all worlds with Environmental Preference that is not Optimal or Superb
+3 Research on all worlds with Black Hole for a sun
+1 Research on all worlds set to Balanced or Science Focus

Cult of the Black Hole
Prerequisites: Peering into Infinity
Cost: 15/rp for 4 turns
A "skunkworks" project....to be certain nothing your empire's leadership will officially admit to supporting. The Black Hole Cultists, for whatever crazy reason, orgainize suicide trips into black holes. Data transmitted back seconds before the ships hits the event horizon has proven invaluable to fringe scientists...oddly contrasting data collected by unmanned probes.

Mainstream scientists are appauled, and dismiss the odd final tranmissions from the Cultists as the ravings of lunatics.

Effects:
unlocks *blah blah* (a next age tech, TBD, that continues the story)
following effect does not occur once *blah blah* tech above is researched
-3 Happiness to all worlds in Black Hole systems (the cult weirds people out)

Heroic Explorers
Cost 10/rp for 3 turns
Early starlane travel is mostly limited to the military and scientists. These explorers of the frontier become lauded by the public at large. This project is propaganda designed to capitalize on the fame of Exodus Explorers, encouraging youth to stay in school and pursue higher education.

Effects:
*possible leader effects TBD
unlocks the Monument to Exodus build project
If *next age tech* is researched, the following effects do not occur…:
+5 Happiness on all worlds (happiness is not used in v.3)
+2 Science on all worlds

Monument to Exodus
Cost: ?? 50/pp for 15 turns?
Prerequisites: Heroic Explorers (special: Monument to Exodus cannot be started once *next age tech* is researched…is this possible?? TBD)

A tower that reaches for the stars, the Monument to Exodus commemorates the heroic sacrifices of early explorers. The monument inspires the entire empire towards the pursuit of the unknown.

Effects:
*possible leader effects TBD
+1 Science, Happiness all Balanced Focused worlds
+2 Science, Happiness all Science Focused worlds
Effects above do not stack.
Upkeep: 1 (money/turn)

Self-Organizing Databases
10/rp for 4 turns
Mountains and mountains of data flow from starlane exploration--conventional methods of storing information have become obsolete. Semi-sentient databases have been developed, forming the foundation for future research.

Effects:
*unlocks Encyclopedia Exodus and the System Archives build project

System Archives (build project)
Cost: 20/pp for 3 turns
A massive semi-sentient database, the System Archives record and organize the data from every lab and probe in the solar system. The Archives also form the basis for the system-wide computer network—unfortunately introducing a target for criminal hacker attacks.
Effects:
+1 Research all worlds within the same system
+2 Research all worlds with Science Focus within the same system
Effects above do not stack.
-3 Security this world (security isn’t in v.3)
Upkeep: 3 (money/turn)

Encyclopedia Exodus
Prerequisites: Self-Organizing Databases
Cost: 40/rp for 10 turns
The Age of Exodus has been an unparalleled windfall of data: new worlds, civilizations, and the starlanes themselves have been probed and prodded by the expeditionary fleets. The Encyclopedia Exodus project translates this data into knowledge, opening a vast new universe for science.
Effects:
+1 Research on all worlds
*many “Exodus Age” techs (in this category and others) have the Encyclopedia Exodus as a prerequisite, including the *next age* technology

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