Fiftteent game on the multiplayer slow game server

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LienRag
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Re: Fiftteent game on the multiplayer slow game server

#271 Post by LienRag »

OK, the three of you against me, I guess I'm officially dead now...

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Geoff the Medio
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Re: Fiftteent game on the multiplayer slow game server

#272 Post by Geoff the Medio »

LienRag wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:31 pmwhy isn't the Stockpile-originated Production in a different colour or brightness than regular production ?
Nobody suggested it, that I recall. Make a mockup and post a feature request on github?

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Re: Fiftteent game on the multiplayer slow game server

#273 Post by Oberlus »

LienRag wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 7:43 pm OK, the three of you against me, I guess I'm officially dead now...
It's two vs you. I've been in a two vs me for most of the game, so do not whine too much :twisted:

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Re: Fiftteent game on the multiplayer slow game server

#274 Post by Ophiuchus »

Oberlus wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 1:06 pm
LienRag wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 7:43 pm OK, the three of you against me, I guess I'm officially dead now...
It's two vs you. I've been in a two vs me for most of the game, so do not whine too much :twisted:
I wish it would have been two at the same time. Probably would have gotten my cake and be able to eat it instead of throwing it in the trash.
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

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Re: Fiftteent game on the multiplayer slow game server

#275 Post by Oberlus »

At turn 123 an armed fleet of Oberlus empire arrived to LienRag's system Boros alpha, with high planetary defenses, both empires at war for a long time, but combat didn't happen.
I've seen something similar happen sometimes in single player games, or maybe this is a new bug.
For the record, in case we can debug it when game finishes.

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Re: Fiftteent game on the multiplayer slow game server

#276 Post by Oberlus »

Ophiuchus wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 3:47 pm I wish it would have been two at the same time. Probably would have gotten my cake and be able to eat it instead of throwing it in the trash.
You two making me tense for the whole game had one consequence: I overcommitted to production and building army, hoping to be a PITA for whoever tried to finish me off. Not the best techs, but a sizeable army, to cover the two fronts. And now that new Ophi empire cut me some slack I got plenty of strength to push towards one of the sides (LienRag's).
If LienRag and I had got along from start instead of constantly betraying each other*, this game would have been quite different, with you, Ophi, sweating blood to survive.

(*) I'm being polite here, because I know LienRag will say the opposite. My version is that LienRag broke his word half the time, and tried to manipulate me the other half. Each time I've attacked him it's been following what I said I would do in response to LienRag's betrayals.

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Re: Fiftteent game on the multiplayer slow game server

#277 Post by LienRag »

Ophiuchus wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 3:47 pm I wish it would have been two at the same time. Probably would have gotten my cake and be able to eat it instead of throwing it in the trash.
Well, you might have wanted to make some diplomatic offer then...
Not that I would necessarily have taken it (especially after I learned that you were ready to let Oberlus destroy me if he gave you Gysache) but who knows ? There were moments in the game when a good diplomatic offer would have swayed my decision.

But good diplomacy takes a lot of time, and IRL was in the way, I get that.
Maybe another game ?

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Re: Fiftteent game on the multiplayer slow game server

#278 Post by LienRag »

Oberlus wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 3:52 pm At turn 123 an armed fleet of Oberlus empire arrived to LienRag's system Boros alpha, with high planetary defenses, both empires at war for a long time, but combat didn't happen.
I've seen something similar happen sometimes in single player games, or maybe this is a new bug.
For the record, in case we can debug it when game finishes.
Oh, so now it's four of you (Oberlus, Ophiuchus, 0o1g and the game system) against me ?
Wonderful !

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Re: Fiftteent game on the multiplayer slow game server

#279 Post by Oberlus »

LienRag wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 6:13 pm Oh, so now it's four of you (Oberlus, Ophiuchus, 0o1g and the game system) against me ?
Wonderful !
Wat? My fleet not pwning your planet is a problem for me, not for you.

Also, why do you say Ophiuchus/Wobbly is against you? Do you even share borders?

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Re: Fiftteent game on the multiplayer slow game server

#280 Post by LienRag »

Oberlus wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 6:22 pm Wat? My fleet not pwning your planet is a problem for me, not for you.
Indeed, I misunderstood the situation.
If it's two against three, I might stand a chance... :mrgreen:

Oberlus wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 6:22 pm Also, why do you say Ophiuchus/Wobbly is against you? Do you even share borders?
You should look at the diplomatic statuses (declarations of war really should generate a sitrep, I nearly missed it myself)...

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Re: Fiftteent game on the multiplayer slow game server

#281 Post by LienRag »

Oberlus wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 3:59 pm If LienRag and I had got along from start instead of constantly betraying each other*, this game would have been quite different, with you, Ophi, sweating blood to survive.

(*) I'm being polite here, because I know LienRag will say the opposite. My version is that LienRag broke his word half the time, and tried to manipulate me the other half. Each time I've attacked him it's been following what I said I would do in response to LienRag's betrayals.[/color]
I didn't betray you, except if you were waaay too trusting in the beginning to the point of thinking that just talking about an agreement was the same as actually having an agreement (I indeed tried in the first part of the game to push my advantage since accepting your deal without more ado would have handed you victory on a silver plater, but if you're free to refuse such "gunboat diplomacy" it certainly doesn't amount to betrayal, we hadn't signed any agreement yet - and it wasn't exactly gunboat diplomacy per se as you weren't supposed to see my ships, I had them nearby just to keep all options available, your scout happened to turn in a direction I hadn't expected and saw what he wasn't supposed to see).

And I really fail to understand how you can say OOC that I broke my word ? You are free to feel that I intended to break it (and I certainly do not guarantee OOC that my Emperor will never break his word, either in this game or in a next one), but it happens that I never did in this game (maybe for nefarious reasons, I'm not pretending to be pure of heart as an Emperor, but the point is that I never did).
Manipulate you, well it's a diplomacy wargame isn't it ?

But anyway I did exactly what we agreed to (not out of the goodness of my heart, but because if Ophiuchus was going to destroy you, there was no point in confronting you when I had a clearly inferior army unable to make serious territorial gains, especially since there was no coordination with Ophiuchus' own operations) and even caved when you stretched the interpretations of our agreements very, very far past the point of reasonability (for the same reason, it wasn't my interest to fight back at that exact moment) and yet you attacked me many times...

It's a game, it's entirely fine (especially since apparently this will bring you to final victory), but how could your attacks be in response to "my betrayals" when I never betrayed you ?
(which doesn't mean that I never thought about it, to be clear)

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Re: Fiftteent game on the multiplayer slow game server

#282 Post by Oberlus »

LienRag wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 6:27 pm You should look at the diplomatic statuses (declarations of war really should generate a sitrep, I nearly missed it myself)...
Do you mean I have missed that I signed peace with Ophiuchus? Oh, maybe I wasn't looking at what my right hand was doing...

Is Ophiuchus/Wobbly attacking you? I guess not. So yes, it's two vs you, until you see a red warship attacking you.

Good diplomacy doesn't take as much time as bad diplomacy, and gets you better results.

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Re: Fiftteent game on the multiplayer slow game server

#283 Post by wobbly »

The message "declares war" appears in the chat, but it doesn't seem to be saved. Just took a look and its no longer there. As far as whether I'm attacking or not with that fleet, well I'm not certain myself. I certainly have no interest in that border moving closing to me.

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Re: Fiftteent game on the multiplayer slow game server

#284 Post by Oberlus »

LienRag wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 6:29 pm I didn't betray you, except if you were waaay too trusting in the beginning to the point of thinking that just talking about an agreement was the same as actually having an agreement
I can copy the PMs here if you want. I asked for cooperation, you said you were interested and would cooperate and do the species exchange, I said let's do it and begin building the colony ship for you. Then you brought warships near my HW, I asked why, you asked me again if I wanted to cooperate, I was WTF? then you attacked me.
Yes, telling me you want to cooperate and then attack me is betrayal in my language.
LienRag wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 6:29 pm I indeed tried in the first part of the game to push my advantage since accepting your deal without more ado would have handed you victory on a silver plater
What advantage? You overextended your supply to reach near my HW and block building a colony at my outpost. I build army instead and you lost warships and gave me in a silver plate a George colony in exchange of nothing. I lost nothing, just got delayed.
If instead you have exchanged species you would have Gysache from early game to colonize all those ocean, swamp and toxic planets you populated with George much later. It was quite a stupid move from your part. We already talked about this in private but you still won't accept reality.
LienRag wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 6:29 pm we hadn't signed any agreement yet
I guess I needed an electronic certificate and a driving license to be sure of an agreement with you :roll: :lol:
Don't worry, I've learnt the lesson and will not commit the same mistake again.
LienRag wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 6:29 pm my ships, I had them nearby just to keep all options available
No, you had them nearby to attack, as you soon did without any provocation from me. I was away from your space, didn't even scout within your supply until I see your warship incoming while you was saying "yes, yes, I want to cooperate".
LienRag wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 6:29 pm And I really fail to understand how you can say OOC that I broke my word?
You fail to understand many things indeed, but I can't explain it better than what I already did.
And I am not talking about OOC, but about what your empire, named "LienRag", did.
LienRag wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 6:29 pm Manipulate you, well it's a diplomacy wargame isn't it ?
So the only diplomacy you understand is manipulation. Now I understand :lol:

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Re: Fiftteent game on the multiplayer slow game server

#285 Post by LienRag »

Oberlus wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 6:50 pm
LienRag wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 6:29 pm Manipulate you, well it's a diplomacy wargame isn't it ?
So the only diplomacy you understand is manipulation. Now I understand :lol:
Well, that's what diplomacy is IRL (check any serious history book) and usually what it is in multiplayer wargames, yes.

Also it's the reason why I insist on playing only fixed teams or no-team-victory : it makes clear to everyone that diplomacy is the continuation of war by other means and that your best ally is still here to kill you, no hard feelings.


Oberlus wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 6:50 pm I can copy the PMs here if you want. I asked for cooperation, you said you were interested and would cooperate and do the species exchange, I said let's do it and begin building the colony ship for you. Then you brought warships near my HW, I asked why, you asked me again if I wanted to cooperate, I was WTF? then you attacked me.
Yes, telling me you want to cooperate and then attack me is betrayal in my language.
I was interested, but we were still negotiating (which means that as long as the negotiations are not finished there is no agreement yet).
I can understand that the species exchange without more agreement on borders, eventual compensation, and future relations was in your interest since you gained much more from it than me, but it certainly wasn't in mine (that's what I called "handing you victory on a silver platter" : we would both have thrived but you much more than me and I would end the second player, which means defeat on a one-winner-only game).

Especially since I had a relatively bad start with very few good planets, and you were hogging all the good Tundras.
More, if you refused to let me colonize Anraq and Sssla with Gysache, I had no way to establish a chokepoint to protect my Capitol. The only system I was able to colonize at this point south of my Capitol was Ursa, very close to my Capitol, which means that at the end of the game you would very easily destroy me.

I hoped to settle at least a few of those good Tundras near your Capitol, which might have been unrealistic, I admit.

So I stalled the negotiations until I could practice a few "fait accomplis", and then the Perth situation arose and I tried to accelerate the negotiations, as I really didn't want to go to war but I couldn't let you deny me Sssla and Anraq. And if there was to be a war, it needed to be quick before you built an army.
I refused your first offer about Perth as I thought it was not satisfying and believed that I could get better terms (yes, it was a mistake from me) and then you ended the negotiations quite abruptly and built your army much quicker than I thought and beat the crap out of me, so I certainly misappreciated the situation.

But preparing both for peace and for war while we discuss the terms of an agreement is usually called "negotiating", not betrayal...
At no point did I ever say at this time that I would not attack you ? That was a declaration to be made at the end of the negotiations, if we agreed on clear terms. And since it was my first game, I intended to keep my promises at least for most of the game (it's meta-gaming and I don't like it, but since we use the same nicknames than in future games, it's difficult to do otherwise).

I checked the PM, I wrote "We/I would like to share your goods and culture", which was not exactly the same as "I am going to do the species exchange whatever the terms"...
I was interested, yes, and even interested in doing it peacefully, but I was still trying to get more out of it than you, as in any serious negotiation.

I had brought warships in the vicinity before meeting you and one thing single player taught me is that moving ships back and forth without clear reasons is a good way to make them completely useless, so I kept them here just in case, and also as a hint to you of "maybe don't go in that direction".
The troop ship I had built when I saw your first planet (Altaria) and found it quite yummy. Since I genuinely believed that the species exchange was to be done through mutual conquest, I thought that maybe I could conquer that yummy planet and that it would pass as a "honest mistake". Then I saw that your Capitol was very close to it and understood that you would never accept such a security risk so I backed off from this plan (especially after you told me about the "gift" mechanism) but since I already had a troop ship I kept it hidden (well, badly hidden as it appeared) in the vicinity in case the negotiations would not go well.


Oberlus wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 6:50 pm
LienRag wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 6:29 pm I indeed tried in the first part of the game to push my advantage since accepting your deal without more ado would have handed you victory on a silver plater
What advantage? You overextended your supply to reach near my HW and block building a colony at my outpost. I build army instead and you lost warships and gave me in a silver plate a George colony in exchange of nothing. I lost nothing, just got delayed.
If instead you have exchanged species you would have Gysache from early game to colonize all those ocean, swamp and toxic planets you populated with George much later. It was quite a stupid move from your part. We already talked about this in private but you still won't accept reality.

Well, as I wrote above, the species exchange was in my advantage but not enough to let me have a chance of winning the game, so I needed to get better terms.
Also, it was my first multiplayer game and in single player I usually don't have much problems with Supply, so I completely underestimated how much Georges being Very Good Supply helped me extend my territory and that you had not the same advantage, so I thought that your southern extension was probably very important and that I was behind in terms of colonization (especially with your very good system near your Capitol).

I had my eyes on Perth since before meeting you so our encounter only made settling it more urgent if I wanted access to the good tundras beyond it.

When your outpost ship won the race I should have reconsidered my options rather than outpost a planet in the same system, you're probably right.
But you had made absolutely zero commitment beyond the species exchange, my outpost ship was out of fuel so unable to go back to Anraq to outpost it (which would have been useless if we finally didn't conclude the deal, as Anraq is a swamp) and I really couldn't let you extend further north.

I genuinely thought that you wanted the peaceful Specie exchange and as such that I could find a way to compensate you moderately for Perth but still keep it as our frontier - another miscalculation from me.

It was completely stupid of me to settle it with George and so remove all incentive for you to obtain George through negotiation, I never denied this reality.
As I wrote above, I miscalculated how quickly you would build an army, so I thought I had time to prepare the defences of Perth and that the cost of war would lead you to accept to negotiate a deal including the fait accompli at Perth (yes, another miscalculation).

The thing was the alternative was a much easier game for me as you pointed it many times, but that would still end in my defeat at your hands at the end of the game.
I can understand why you would find this way more appealing than the risks I took trying to negotiate a better deal, but maybe you can understand too why defeat at your hands in the end was quite less appealing to me ?
Fail often, fail early is quite a good motto in multiplayer games too...

Oh, and since I warned you for two turns and tried to find a diplomatic solution before taking your outpost at Perth, I can understand how you can find this a hostile gesture and a bad ending to our negotiations, or find my behaviour bulliysh (well, an Emperor isn't in this Galaxy to make friends), but I fail to understand how it could qualify as betrayal or breaking my word ?


Oberlus wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 6:50 pm
LienRag wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 6:29 pm we hadn't signed any agreement yet
I guess I needed an electronic certificate and a driving license to be sure of an agreement with you :roll: :lol:
Don't worry, I've learnt the lesson and will not commit the same mistake again.
Well, no, but yes there is a difference between "I am interested in negotiating a deal" and "we have a deal [list of what you promise/agree to] [list of what I promise/agree to]".
Check the PM, I expressed interest in the Species exchange (and I was genuinely interested) but you ended the negotiations before we came to anything more practical.


Oberlus wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 6:50 pm
LienRag wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 6:29 pm And I really fail to understand how you can say OOC that I broke my word?
You fail to understand many things indeed, but I can't explain it better than what I already did.
And I am not talking about OOC, but about what your empire, named "LienRag", did.
I mean, I understand how in RP you can pretend that my Emperor did whatever evil things, but now that we are speaking OOC, I fail to understand how you can say (not lying, or pretending false things, then) that I (as an Emperor) broke my word since if I'm not mistaken there is not a single promise that I made and did not respect ?
(again, not to say that as an Emperor I am entirely trustworthy, but factually so far I have not ever broken my word in this game, so I don't understand your affirmation ? I don't feel insulted by it, you're accusing my Emperor who is not bound by the morality I have as a player, but I don't understand it)


Oberlus wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 6:50 pm
LienRag wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 6:29 pm my ships, I had them nearby just to keep all options available
No, you had them nearby to attack, as you soon did without any provocation from me. I was away from your space, didn't even scout within your supply until I see your warship incoming while you was saying "yes, yes, I want to cooperate".
I acknowledge that healthy suspicion is a quality in a multiplayer game, but I don't understand how you can believe that you know what's inside my head ?
I explained why my ships were there, and if the negotiations had been going the way I wanted them I had no intention to attack.
Actually, immobilizing my ships there as they were slowly losing value (since the more time passes, the less they're an advantage compared to the ships other players can build) was a problem to me, but our negotiations were so vital to my future that I had to keep these ships that way at least until you officially committed to peaceful resolution of eventual disagreements (which you never did).

It was indeed not a provocation by you, but a Thucydid trap that led to war. You researched ground troops while the Perth situation was still unresolved, and since I had only a small troop ship I wouldn't be able to conquer your outpost if I waited too long without reaching a long-term agreement (actually, I miscalculated the growth so I had to build in emergency a second troop ship).
I was interested in cooperating, but if there was no deal in the end (or a deal not good enough to give me a chance to win) I could not let you build your defences before acting. And it was my first multiplayer game, I didn't know your belligerent style of diplomacy, I thought that I still maybe had a chance to convince you to go back to a reasonable deal after taking your outpost, and I didn't see many other options.

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