Fiftteent game on the multiplayer slow game server

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Ophiuchus
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Re: Fiftteent game on the multiplayer slow game server

#196 Post by Ophiuchus »

LienRag wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 5:07 pm
o01eg wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 2:39 pm
LienRag wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 12:52 pm Back to fifteenth game : is the sitrep working fine ?
Aren't we supposed to get a sitrep when a player declares war on us ?
I don't remember such sitreps exists.
Three little spacebirds told me that a Capitol changed hands recently, and in Single Player I definitely get a sitrep message when such things happen.
And here I got nothing...
drkosy scrapped everything on that planet before i invaded. so maybe one of the buildings is usually triggering this?

he overcommitted to expansion, neglecting his military. wasting PP building indefensible outposts. basically built his first warship when my fleet was full strength and already on his capitol planet. i remember also doing that in the beginning - i guess AI is not aggressive enough anymore. on 0.4.7 (?) it taught me also in single player not to build too close to the enemy.
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wobbly
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Re: Fiftteent game on the multiplayer slow game server

#197 Post by wobbly »

Pretty sure the sitrep is when the imperial palace falls. If it scraped instead there's no message and no head on spike.

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LienRag
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Re: Fiftteent game on the multiplayer slow game server

#198 Post by LienRag »

wobbly wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 6:46 am Pretty sure the sitrep is when the imperial palace falls. If it scraped instead there's no message and no head on spike.
That would explain things indeed.
We need to allow moving the Palace so scraping it should stay an option but not for scorched earth tactics like that.
I mean, I am against scorched earth tactics in general as they're a no-brainer (which is something we should always avoid) and limit tactical thinking, but it's even worse when the Imperial Palace (and the Cultural Library too I guess) is concerned.

Maybe have an "Imperial Palace transfer" building that one could build on one other Colony, and that would automatically scrap the old Imperial Palace and create a new one on the other Colony at completion ?

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Re: Fiftteent game on the multiplayer slow game server

#199 Post by Ophiuchus »

LienRag wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 11:26 amImperial Palace (and the Cultural Library too I guess) is concerned.
Imperial palace is pretty worthless. Cultural library is the prize.
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Re: Fiftteent game on the multiplayer slow game server

#200 Post by Ophiuchus »

LienRag wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 11:26 am Maybe have an "Imperial Palace transfer" building that one could build on one other Colony, and that would automatically scrap the old Imperial Palace and create a new one on the other Colony at completion ?
Such a transition should be rather a project instead of a building. Until we have such a thing we can workaround like with the "abandon outpost" building.

Palace transfer takes one turn to build, but 9 turns afterwards to establish the new imperial palace and remove the old one.
The imperial palace could loose its benefits while a palace transfer building exists.

I think we should in general scrap scrapping completely or always impose some turns countdown until the building is removed after starting scrapping)
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Re: Fiftteent game on the multiplayer slow game server

#201 Post by Oberlus »

Ophiuchus wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 12:38 pm Such a transition should be rather a project instead of a building. Until we have such a thing we can workaround like with the "abandon outpost" building.
Agree. I think it should take up influence points, not PPs, to "build".

Ophiuchus wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 12:38 pm Palace transfer takes one turn to build, but 9 turns afterwards to establish the new imperial palace and remove the old one.
That doesn't make much sense to me. Why not just take 9 turns or whatever to finish and upon that make the palace transfer effective? (destroy previous one whetever it is, create new one in the world of the transfer project).

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LienRag
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Re: Fiftteent game on the multiplayer slow game server

#202 Post by LienRag »

Ophiuchus wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 12:25 pm
LienRag wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 11:26 amImperial Palace (and the Cultural Library too I guess) is concerned.
Imperial palace is pretty worthless. Cultural library is the prize.
Isn't it the Palace that gives 0,5 Production Point per population ?
I thought the Cultural Library only added 5 Research Points (which is huge indeed, but the PP bonus is very interesting too).
Ophiuchus wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 12:38 pm
LienRag wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 11:26 am Maybe have an "Imperial Palace transfer" building that one could build on one other Colony, and that would automatically scrap the old Imperial Palace and create a new one on the other Colony at completion ?
Such a transition should be rather a project instead of a building. Until we have such a thing we can workaround like with the "abandon outpost" building.
Right, as an Influence project it may fit better indeed.
And since Influence is imho not ready at all for Stable deployment we do need a workaround like yours.
Ophiuchus wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 12:38 pm
Palace transfer takes one turn to build, but 9 turns afterwards to establish the new imperial palace and remove the old one.
The imperial palace could loose its benefits while a palace transfer building exists.
You mean to prevent it from being queued indefinitely ?
I think that if we make it costly enough there's no need for it, an Empire doing that as a backup measure would be really missing the Production Points invested in such a building.
Also if he was to change minds about the destination of the backup Palace he would have to repay most of the cost again.

Or was it to make it visible to enemy scouting ? That indeed would be strategically interesting...

Ophiuchus wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 12:38 pm The imperial palace could loose its benefits while a palace transfer building exists.
Why ?
I think making the Transfer costly is enough to make the decision a big one and not at all a no-brainer.
Ophiuchus wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 12:38 pm
I think we should in general scrap scrapping completely or always impose some turns countdown until the building is removed after starting scrapping)
I'm not sure about what to do (scorched earth as a no-brainer is certainly bad and we should prevent it; the ability to use scorched earth tactics in itself is not a bad thing by itself if it needs good strategic planning to succeed and if there are counter-measures possible for the enemy¹) but yes scrapping needs a full rework.



¹ I think Influence projects could be a good tool for that ? Specifically if the Influencer has to launch his Influence project before the Influencee began scrapping and it only delays the scrapping for a few turns) ?

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Re: Fiftteent game on the multiplayer slow game server

#203 Post by LienRag »

Oberlus, maybe you could move this discussion about Imperial Palace to an "other game design" specific topic ?

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Re: Fiftteent game on the multiplayer slow game server

#204 Post by Ophiuchus »

Oberlus wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 1:22 pm
Ophiuchus wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 12:38 pm Palace transfer takes one turn to build, but 9 turns afterwards to establish the new imperial palace and remove the old one.
That doesn't make much sense to me. Why not just take 9 turns or whatever to finish and upon that make the palace transfer effective? (destroy previous one whetever it is, create new one in the world of the transfer project).
Cause it defeats the purpose. Just build in advance and pause 1 turn before finishing. Same as scrapping and even worse because there are no downsides to moving the palace anymore.

Edit1: okay as LienRag pointed out, making the new palace very expensive can be used to balance the cost. But it is a different cost. Currently it can cost you your supply network - which i find is an interesting thing.
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LienRag
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Re: Fiftteent game on the multiplayer slow game server

#205 Post by LienRag »

LienRag wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 1:33 pm
Ophiuchus wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 12:25 pm
LienRag wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 11:26 amImperial Palace (and the Cultural Library too I guess) is concerned.
Imperial palace is pretty worthless. Cultural library is the prize.
Isn't it the Palace that gives 0,5 Production Point per population ?
I thought the Cultural Library only added 5 Research Points (which is huge indeed, but the PP bonus is very interesting too).
Oh, indeed it is the Cultural Library that provides both.
Such an important building should certainly not being scrapable too easily...

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Re: Fiftteent game on the multiplayer slow game server

#206 Post by drkosy »

i guess AI is not aggressive enough anymore.
At least the don't ask for peace just to scout the region and declare war the next time. So with AI I know what I have. With you I don't know. Exactly that is the reason why it was the first and the last game with you involved...
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Re: Fiftteent game on the multiplayer slow game server

#207 Post by LienRag »

drkosy wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 6:02 pm
At least the don't ask for peace just to scout the region and declare war the next time. So with AI I know what I have. With you I don't know.
Yes, that's the point of a diplomacy game ?
One of the skill needed to win is the ability to assess how much one should trust another player¹, it's not enough to be good tactically nor to master the game mechanisms.

Also, countering "frenemy" scouts should be interesting Influence projects I guess ? One would need to target the destination of a still scout to remove some fuel from it, maybe ?


¹ Trust him in-game I mean, not as a human being. That's what I usually mean by "Emperor" (in-game) as opposite to "player" (out of game). And why I think RP is a good way to separate both.

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Re: Fiftteent game on the multiplayer slow game server

#208 Post by Ophiuchus »

drkosy wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 6:02 pm
i guess AI is not aggressive enough anymore.
At least the don't ask for peace just to scout the region and declare war the next time. So with AI I know what I have. With you I don't know. Exactly that is the reason why it was the first and the last game with you involved...
Ups, sorry. I should have written something formal. You put an outpost in my supply lines directly next to one of my planets. That could be considered an aggression. I then started my attacks. The scouting wasnt really a preparation.

Main reasons are game logic though. With the few options for colonisation my area gave me I could only go for an early grab. With o01eg being Laenfa an early grab is impossible, so I went for alliance and species exchange with him (also Laenfa combine nicely with etty). I had already etty so eaxaw are not really interesting as species (only +1 extra damage level, and mostly the same environment, plus they are xenophobes and dont integrate well.

So if my other side would have been different I would probably have tried to ally with you.
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Re: Fiftteent game on the multiplayer slow game server

#209 Post by drkosy »

Ups, sorry. I should have written something formal.
Thanks for you apologize :) I was frustrated by loosing and you words weren't very polite, but now it's OK. I see you point. It hat just been nice if you had written me something like: "Stay away from my territory or I declare war".
On the other hand I don't even recognize you declaring war on me, because I wasn't online as that happened and as oberlus stated out, those messages aren't stored in the log.

To correct my telling: We could play again for shure, but I will be very wary whom I trust and whom not...
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Re: Fiftteent game on the multiplayer slow game server

#210 Post by Oberlus »

I've just finished a Gysache colony in a tundra world (-6 pop). Meh...

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