Seventeenth game on the multiplayer slow game server

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wobbly
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Re: Seventeenth game on the multiplayer slow game server

#76 Post by wobbly »

Ophiuchus wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 3:58 pm
wobbly wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 5:00 am I'm not a fan of the new 4 bout damage display on ships. I think this adds extra confusion when dealing with shielded ships.
Would an average per bout damage be more helpful? There are weapons which only shoot two bouts or three bouts as well.
Ah ok, I'd forgotten about that. Maybe total is the best of an awkward problem. There does need to be an easier way to find the damage/shot however. If I go into pedia for a ship it only displays the total for 4 rounds. If I click on the weapon part the shot damage is for base tech, rather then current tech. I'm not finding a simple way to bring up a single shot damage to compare to the shield value without doing some extra calculations.

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Re: Seventeenth game on the multiplayer slow game server

#77 Post by Ophiuchus »

wobbly wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 5:48 am There does need to be an easier way to find the damage/shot however. If I go into pedia for a ship it only displays the total for 4 rounds. If I click on the weapon part the shot damage is for base tech, rather then current tech. I'm not finding a simple way to bring up a single shot damage to compare to the shield value without doing some extra calculations.
well there are also other effects (e.g. pilot skill) which influence the outcome.

side-note: For a ship you can get the pedia entry which has an estimate vs a certain shield level.

the probably simplest solution is to add some info on the ship part page showing effective shot damage (taking current tech level into account, maybe also with current species like it is done for ship design/ship). shot damage is statically true on some level, compared to damage per bout (which is zero in the first bout for some weapons and all fighters and also zero if your vessel got killed in a bout before). If you like that, please open a feature request.

A more complex/generic solution would be having (check boxes for activation and) sliders for values of effects in the pedia (also maybe drop-down lists for e.g. species). This could give shot damage (i.e. ignoring the target condition) as well as the combat estimate. And add a pedia entry for fleet information so you can use it there as well.
For your use case you could adjust the slider for enemy shield value.
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Look, ma... four combat bouts!

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Oberlus
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Re: Seventeenth game on the multiplayer slow game server

#78 Post by Oberlus »

Ultimately, for each weapon (accessible by hovering at a ship's weapon icon, c and d in the attached screenshot) I'd like to know per-bout values for:
- Anti-ship weapon: structural damage per shot, firerate (shots per bout), and bouts at which it hits the enemy (currently "all", "all but first", there will be more) or at least number of bouts in which it shots.
- Point-defense weapon: fighters/missiles killed per bout.
So in the screenshot I'd like to have c: "30 x 1 x 4" and d: "0".

For each ship or fleet (seen as sets of weapons), I'd like to know maximum per-combat totals for:
- Anti-ship damage (a in the screenshot), anti-ship shots (useful to estimate effect of enemy shields) and point-defense shots (b in the screenshot).
So I'd like to change a in the screenshot from "120" to "120/4".

AND, when hovering over a fleet's damage icon, which currently shows no tooltip, I'd like to see a breakdown for each bout similar to what is seen when hovering over the fighters icon of a ship:
For each bout: structural damage, in how many shots, point-defense shots.
So hovering over the 240 damage icon of Battle Fleet 7016 in the screenshot, I'd like to see something like:
Bout 1: 60/2, 0
Bout 2: 60/2, 0
Bout 3: 60/2, 0
Bout 4: 60/2, 0
(60 from two MD shots in the fleet, 0 flak/interceptor).
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wobbly
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Re: Seventeenth game on the multiplayer slow game server

#79 Post by wobbly »

Seems a lot for balance? Note it only goes up that high when the capital is set to influence.
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Ophiuchus
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Re: Seventeenth game on the multiplayer slow game server

#80 Post by Ophiuchus »

wobbly wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:16 pm Seems a lot for balance? Note it only goes up that high when the capital is set to influence.

influence.png
yeah, i did a test game with fulver and it comes easily to over 30
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Re: Seventeenth game on the multiplayer slow game server

#81 Post by Ophiuchus »

Ophiuchus wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 8:45 am
wobbly wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 5:48 am I'm not finding a simple way to bring up a single shot damage to compare to the shield value without doing some extra calculations.
the probably simplest solution is to add some info on the ship part page showing effective shot damage (taking current tech level into account, maybe also with current species like it is done for ship design/ship). shot damage is statically true on some level, compared to damage per bout (which is zero in the first bout for some weapons and all fighters and also zero if your vessel got killed in a bout before). If you like that, please open a feature request.
also something simple: we could show the per-combat shield value, so in case your shot damage is higher than shield strength for all weapons you can "correctly" calculate an estimate

next_turn_structure == current_structure + combat_shield_strength - enemy_combat_damage
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Look, ma... four combat bouts!

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Geoff the Medio
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Re: Seventeenth game on the multiplayer slow game server

#82 Post by Geoff the Medio »

wobbly wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:16 pmSeems a lot for balance? Note it only goes up that high when the capital is set to influence.
Issues with Balance policy were mentioned here: viewtopic.php?p=107997#p107997

I've pushed a branch with the Balance focus-dependent formula reworked. Needs "balance" testing, though.

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Re: Seventeenth game on the multiplayer slow game server

#83 Post by Ophiuchus »

Ophiuchus wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:20 pm
Ophiuchus wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 8:45 am
wobbly wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 5:48 am I'm not finding a simple way to bring up a single shot damage to compare to the shield value without doing some extra calculations.
the probably simplest solution is to add some info on the ship part page showing effective shot damage (taking current tech level into account, maybe also with current species like it is done for ship design/ship). shot damage is statically true on some level, compared to damage per bout (which is zero in the first bout for some weapons and all fighters and also zero if your vessel got killed in a bout before). If you like that, please open a feature request.
also something simple: we could show the per-combat shield value, so in case your shot damage is higher than shield strength for all weapons you can "correctly" calculate an estimate

next_turn_structure == current_structure + combat_shield_strength - enemy_combat_damage
yikes, i meant:

next_turn_structure == current_structure + (combat_shield_strength * enemy_combat_shots) - enemy_combat_damage
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

Look, ma... four combat bouts!

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Re: Seventeenth game on the multiplayer slow game server

#84 Post by wobbly »

I reached 5 races with a 6th on the way so I switched out liberty and took diversity to more easily handle their pet dislikes.

Oberlus may be in serious trouble. Depends if he has defenses waiting to ambush me at the end of the starlane. While I don't necassarily have the troops for the capital, I will be turning his supply into swiss cheese. So may be time soon to decide if we want to do something to keep life in the game. I don't necessarily have to put the boot in for 1.

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Re: Seventeenth game on the multiplayer slow game server

#85 Post by Ophiuchus »

You are way ahead currently in our alliance at least. Actually am not sure where o01eg is. Either quite more advanced than I or not much. My empire is kept nicely at 10 stability and I am working on Galactic infrastructure to also get an administration center for my egassem.

On a side note I was playing a test game with Fulver and they need to be played very differently to be effective (-5 stability). Probably milking light houses for stability (not sure how that scales)
Concerning buildings and dis/likes this game I started building scanning facilities and immediately scrapped them as they make Sly unstable, switching to scout ships instead

Also I have a luxury special which gives +2 to my Sly colonies and if my egassem spawns I will be able to get another one to boost egassem. This will probably free up a policy slot.

Sly don't need that/are distance independent so a good empire shape would be a heartland around the capital where the species zoo gets located and stretch out far using Sly.

On another issue - I put in my last turn yesterday at 9:00 CET or so before running for the train. I am not sure if I turned (email notification left me thinking otherwise). Anyway I probably won't be able to put in a turn before tomorrow at 10 or 11, so I might miss the 48h deadline
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Look, ma... four combat bouts!

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Re: Seventeenth game on the multiplayer slow game server

#86 Post by Oberlus »

If wobbly pushes, I'll fade away, there's no way I can build enough warships to stop his army before he reaches Abaddonopolis.
I'm sorry I didn't put up a good fight. Totally my fault, I completely neglected military.
We can keep playing regardless, I don't mind if I am eliminated or spared for later. And we can also start a new game whenever everyone agree to it.

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Re: Seventeenth game on the multiplayer slow game server

#87 Post by wobbly »

Ophiuchus wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 6:14 am On another issue - I put in my last turn yesterday at 9:00 CET or so before running for the train. I am not sure if I turned (email notification left me thinking otherwise). Anyway I probably won't be able to put in a turn before tomorrow at 10 or 11, so I might miss the 48h deadline
Its showing as your turn. I can't see a timer to work out how long you have left.

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Re: Seventeenth game on the multiplayer slow game server

#88 Post by wobbly »

Oberlus wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 9:48 am If wobbly pushes, I'll fade away, there's no way I can build enough warships to stop his army before he reaches Abaddonopolis.
I'm sorry I didn't put up a good fight. Totally my fault, I completely neglected military.
We can keep playing regardless, I don't mind if I am eliminated or spared for later. And we can also start a new game whenever everyone agree to it.
Well I'm almost to distributed thought computing and your colonies will give me a bit of extra distance to make comparisons. :) I also might test indoctrination and we may as well wait long enough for balance/moderation to be balanced and moderated. Then it'll depend on how much longer others are having fun and want to play on.

Environmentalism looks risky if you have an aggressive neighbor. How'd it look balance-wise for the time you had it?

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Re: Seventeenth game on the multiplayer slow game server

#89 Post by Ophiuchus »

Turn 70 Top 5 of attack military tech: wobbly (laser-4, laser fighters), oberlus (plasma, laser fighters), theSilentOne(laser-2, laser fighters, AD), o01eg (laser, fighters, AD), ophiuchus (AD) all have access to average pilots. Typical hulls are symbiotic ones (and robotic)
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Re: Seventeenth game on the multiplayer slow game server

#90 Post by Oberlus »

wobbly wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 4:21 am Well I'm almost to distributed thought computing and your colonies will give me a bit of extra distance to make comparisons. :) I also might test indoctrination and we may as well wait long enough for balance/moderation to be balanced and moderated. Then it'll depend on how much longer others are having fun and want to play on.

Environmentalism looks risky if you have an aggressive neighbor. How'd it look balance-wise for the time you had it?
Yes, more than one thing to fix. My list of things that I think need more love:

- Balance: fluff, equation to make sense with fluff, equation to be balanced.
- Environmentalism: moderate this policy somehow, because good effects are too good (huge flat RP bonus), and bad effects too bad (-5 PP is overkilling except for big populations with plenty of industry bonuses), so it seems a policy that you can have much earlier than when you are able to get profit from it (there would be cases, I can think of allied teams in which one empire goes for early Env. and wide colonization to boost research while other empires go military for protection).
- The policy cards system is confusing. It's hard to know what is needed for what, you need to show unavailable policies and read them one by one and figure out in your mind the chains of dependencies. To have a graphic system that shows it would be great.
- Reallocate the unlocking of some policies. Can't give details now, but there are techs that unlock too many policies, policies that are unlocked much earlier than they can be adopted (because they are unsuitable for that stage of expansion/research, of because they can't be adopted without another policy that requires much more research, and probably because some other issues).
- The fluff of some policies or the dependencies between them seems shabby. E.g. Feudalism and Vassalization require Confederation (and so are impossible to adopt with Centralization), and I think it should be the opposite, since Confederation implies freedom to stay in the empire and the others imply domination from a central government.

I'm soooo behind in playtesting, there are many policies that I haven't adopted once.

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