Another random argument with Oberlus

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LienRag
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Re: State of Art for disconnected empires

#31 Post by LienRag »

Oberlus wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 6:22 pm So I'll pass.
You may be right to not want to spend more time on this point, as long of course as you don't consider it another proof that I shouldn't use the word or that I don't listen...


Oberlus wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 6:22 pm you keep arguing.
Yes, obviously I keep arguing, that's the principle of a discussion, to argue until we collectively find the truth.

If by that you mean that I can never be convinced that I'm wrong, that's demonstrably false. I did on many occurrences change my mind and acknowledge the validity of the other's position when presented with an argument that I found convincing.


Oberlus wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 6:22 pm Stating stuff to you
The only situation were stating things can be useful in a discussion is when these statements are a common ground.
If, for good or bad reasons, I don't find these statements as obviously true as they are to you, then you need to prove the validity of these statements in order for the discussion to have any chance to produce results.


Oberlus wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 6:22 pm
LienRag wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 6:16 pmNot sure, though : stating as axioms things that should be the results of your explanations doesn't seem sound logic to me ?
I guess you are not refering to the normal meaning of logic, but rather to the systematicy and completeness of my communication process.
Not sure what you mean here.
(BTW, referring to "norms" without first checking that all parties to the discussion share these same norms is another thing that is at risk to be entirely sterile)
I was trying to say something simple : you named as axioms things that were actually the object of our discussion (what does "interesting" means and its usefulness as a single word in response to an idea).
If you wanted to convince me logically, you needed to prove these points rather than use them as axioms (and for that, you needed to start from axioms that we both would agree were true).

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LienRag
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Re: Another random argument with Oberlus

#32 Post by LienRag »

Daybreak wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 4:38 am Lol, I PM'd Lienrag, and asked him why was he baiting Oberlus, but he did not understand what I meant. He honestly wanted to discuss it with Oberlus, but felt he would not get anywhere.
Not exactly what I wrote...
Oberlus asked a question and I tried to answer it faithfully, while not understanding at all why he seemed so upset.

Also, I know that you had good intentions here so I won't begrudge you (and nothing bad happened as a result anyway) but it's not really okay (at least to many people, including me) to quote PMs publicly without asking permission first.
I believe it to even be legally reprehensible in some countries ?

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Oberlus
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Re: Another random argument with Oberlus

#33 Post by Oberlus »

Interesting...

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Re: Another random argument with Oberlus

#34 Post by Daybreak »

LienRag wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 6:55 pm
Daybreak wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 4:38 am Lol, I PM'd Lienrag, and asked him why was he baiting Oberlus, but he did not understand what I meant. He honestly wanted to discuss it with Oberlus, but felt he would not get anywhere.
Not exactly what I wrote...
Oberlus asked a question and I tried to answer it faithfully, while not understanding at all why he seemed so upset.

Also, I know that you had good intentions here so I won't begrudge you (and nothing bad happened as a result anyway) but it's not really okay (at least to many people, including me) to quote PMs publicly without asking permission first.
I believe it to even be legally reprehensible in some countries ?
Lienrag you do not recognise it as such, but the actual original heading of this post "Another random argument with Oberlus" is a red flag to a bull. Its stating that you know there will be an argument, but by using the word "Another" that there have already been many, and the use of "random" means that they are about nothing, as far as you are concerned. The use of Oberlus's name in some ways tells everyone in the forum, you think he just has rndom arguments for no purpose and is a little degrading.

The whole heading screams, using my new super word, "Textbait".

However as I stated above, "Lienrag you do not recognise it as such" I believe you do not see that.


I apologise for revealing the personal PM.

I could see that Oberlus and Wobbly could not see how you honestly did not see what they were saying, and they were too angry to realise this is due to language barriers. Even now, at the risk of causing offence, they are still angry.
We all have our own idiosyncrasies, and collective idiosyncrasies, and it is helpful to reflect on how we may be thinking about things, but more importantly how others may be thinking about the same thing. It is too easy, especially in this world where stress on individuals and families just keeps on increasing, to take offence at something you can easily see and attack because it is right in front of you, and it just offends you.

At the end of the day, flame wars on the internet, just don't make sense. Why let someone you don't know spoil your day, by controlling your emotions.

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Re: Another random argument with Oberlus

#35 Post by LienRag »

Daybreak wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 7:52 pm the actual original heading of this post "Another random argument with Oberlus"
It's, afaik, Oberlus' choice to give this title to this thread, which shows that he has self-derision.
So nothing bad about it imho.


Daybreak wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 7:52 pm
At the end of the day, flame wars on the internet, just don't make sense.
We certainly agree on that.
I believe to never having engaged in flamewars here ?

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Oberlus
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Re: Another random argument with Oberlus

#36 Post by Oberlus »

LienRag wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 9:10 pm It's, afaik, Oberlus' choice to give this title to this thread, which shows that he has self-derision.
So nothing bad about it imho.
Right

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Re: Shock and Horror

#37 Post by wobbly »

LienRag wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 6:23 pm But OK, I'll try to be a bit less stubborn than usually
I'm shocked! But hey, good for you. I guess that means I'll have to cut you a bit more slack. Ack! Terrible! Hmm... Presses invade button on LR colony... Anyway, my thanks. I appreciate it.
LienRag wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 6:23 pm what word should I use to the same effect then ("it's a train of thought that looks like it may be promising, I hope that you pursue it further and keep us informed") ?
Interesting is fine, just not by itself. As long as there's some actual feedback attached to it:

e.g.
Interesting. I think we should test this...
Interesting idea, but I don't think it'll work because blah....
Interesting. I think we should add this
Interesting. How would this work in practice?

All those versions are fine

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Re: Another random argument with Oberlus

#38 Post by LienRag »

Oberlus wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 7:18 pm Seriously, try the game before being so vehement in your critics to others suggestions.
I am ferociously critic of others suggestions indeed, and maybe vehemently so.
That is the method that will help improve the game.

I try to never be dismissive of others suggestions though.

I don't know if it's a question of language barrier or whatever¹ but it seems to me that you are very often dismissive of my (or other people sometimes) suggestions or observations ?



¹ Image

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Re: Another random argument with Oberlus

#39 Post by Oberlus »

LienRag wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 2:32 pm I try to never be dismissive of others suggestions though.
You are failing miserably.

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Re: Another random argument with Oberlus

#40 Post by Oberlus »

LienRag wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 2:15 pm I believe it would require thinking more thoroughly [...] but if you want to test this quite simple solution I'm fine with it.
Appart from this being dismissive and condescending on others suggestions (as usual), what would happen if you would be not fine with testing this?
This is another example of your "this is not good enough, but I have nothing else to add, just that you know I don't really approve your ideas" posts, that are a majority.

When I don't like one of your ideas (or anyone else's), I say why, I present my arguments, maybe put up some numbers. The tone of dismissiveness you perceive in my replies are not towards your suggestions but towards your pretentiousness and disdain.

Have a nice day.

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Vezzra
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Re: Another random argument with Oberlus

#41 Post by Vezzra »

Ok, at this point I feel the need to step in. Please, everyone, calm down a bit.

@Oberlus, wobbly, Daybreak (and everybody else on their "side" which I missed): I agree with your assessment that putting just an "Interesting..." (without any further clarification/explanation at all) as a comment to a post is ambigous and therefore not very helpful, especially if it can be perceived as making fun of the post/poster to which this has been the reply.

However, LienRag has explained what he meant by that, and that it hasn't been his intention to be dismissive or to make fun of anyone by that comment. So I think it only fair we should give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that he actually means it, and just leave it at that.

@LienRag: Based on what you said I think I understand your confusion about what the problem is with your "Interesting..." comments, and why you found yourself on the receiving end of such a harsh backlash. As I have no reason to believe otherwise, I believe you when you say that you don't understand why everyone gets so upset about this.

However, if you get such strong reactions to something that in your eyes was a completely innocent statement, it doesn't really make much sense, and also doesn't help, to enter into a prolonged discussion about why. If the people your talking to don't perceive a certain word/phrase/whatever not the same way as you, just accept it and leave it at that.

Of course the question what you should say instead to convey what you want to say is legitimate, but also has been answered already.

Personally, if I put an idea out there and got a simple "Interesting..." as comment, I wouldn't know what to do with that either. I'd wonder if that's intended as a positive, negative or dismissive statement. That said, I have used "interesting" in responses to statements and ideas myself, but when I wanted to convey what you tried to convey with that single word reply, I said something like: "This is an interesting idea". While that doesn't seem to be very different, I think there is a subtle shift in the underlying tone that makes the difference. The possible/potential negative connotation is gone - IMO!

But of course I could be wrong about that, it's just that until now I haven't insulted anyone, at least to my knowledge. No one ever complained. However, someone might in the future, and then I'd have to rethink my use of that phrase.

@Everyone: I can only repeat what Geoff has said many times before in such cases: Keep in mind that words and statements in written form, like on internet forums as this one here, often tend to sound harsher than the poster might have intended. Add to that the languange issues, most of us communicate in a languange (English) that isn't our native one, and also have very different mastery of that langange. So it might very easily happen that something comes across as dismissive, negative, patronizing, impolite, etc. that wasn't intended as such at all.

The only way to deal with that is to try to be as lenient and patient with each other as we can, and if something really crosses a line to hard, try to clarify what the writer of that offensive statement really meant. More often than not it might turn out as a misunderstanding.

I hope I could help alleviate the tensions a bit...

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Re: Another random argument with Oberlus

#42 Post by Oberlus »

Vezzra wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 1:18 pm(all of it)
+1

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Re: State of Art for disconnected empires

#43 Post by Vezzra »

LienRag wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 6:16 pmAnyway, that's not what it means in English, and when I was asked by Oberlus about what I meant I gave a lengthy explanation, so I'm sorry for you if you've been the victim of arseholes in the past, but it has nothing to do with my rightful use of a current English word that actually means what I actually mean.
I think what you need to understand is that your assessment of what "interesting" means in English might be not entirely correct.

If several different people, with different backgrounds, having different native languages, all seem to agree on an understanding of a word that is a bit different than yours, then it's usually likely that they might be closer to the truth than you are. You just need to accept that and adjust your understanding and usage of that word.

That's no problem at all, and can happen to the best of us. :wink:

An extreme exemple that really happened: I had a friend who studied English at the university (meaning, she was really, really good at English - to the point where even native speaker couldn't tell that English wasn't her native language), yet she had a wrong understanding of the English word "irritating". As a German native speaker, she confused it with the very similar German word "irritiert". When visiting the US, she frequently used "irritating" when trying to say that she was "irritiert" by something. Yeah, that didn't go over well with the English native speakers who asked her why on earth she is irritated??? Of course, she actually meant that she was confused (not exactly the same...). They eventually sorted out the problem, and everything was good. :wink:

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Re: Another random argument with Oberlus

#44 Post by Ophiuchus »

Vezzra wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 1:18 pm Personally, if I put an idea out there and got a simple "Interesting..." as comment, I wouldn't know what to do with that either.
+1
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