Twenty-first game on the multiplayer slow game server

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Oberlus
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Re: Twenty-first game on the multiplayer slow game server

#226 Post by Oberlus »

Daybreak wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 11:28 am I believe we need an option to turn off nests and now white kraken as well in MP games, without affecting the monster setting.
I think we need to find a good balance for nests so that there is no need to remove them from the game (that would be sad).
Daybreak wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 11:28 am 3) Distribution seemed ok but Oberlus was still in a smallish pocket.
Do you mean the distribution of kraken nests that I was talking about?
How can it be OK for them to have several nests within their space and we only one in the contested area?

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Re: Twenty-first game on the multiplayer slow game server

#227 Post by Daybreak »

Oberlus wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 1:06 pm
Daybreak wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 11:28 am I believe we need an option to turn off nests and now white kraken as well in MP games, without affecting the monster setting.
I think we need to find a good balance for nests so that there is no need to remove them from the game (that would be sad).
I think that a MP game is people vs people, and anything that detracts from that can spoil the game.

Even Kraken's unowned output currently can be a problem. o01eg had quite bit of difficulty capturing his, and now there is a couple of bigger Krakens wandering around that we have to deal with at the same time we have to deal with Wobbly.

If we increase Kraken output when unowned, then it could stifle a weaker empire, whereas a stronger empire may quickly capture a Kraken nest. It matters little that the stonger empire may not have any owned Krakens, because now he does not have to deal with unowned Krakens close by. He may have to deal with them later, but by then the MP game has already been spoiled.

Maybe a solution would be better distribution, possible around the outside of a galaxy and large distance between each, and the number of nests is based on number of human players, so there is a chance of a fairer outcome. White Kraken could have its stealth increase to say Sensor level before you can see it.

But at end of the day, are the white Kraken and normal Krakens really needed or should they interfere in a people MP game. Not saying we can't have them, but it would be good to have the option.
Oberlus wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 1:06 pm
Daybreak wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 11:28 am 3) Distribution seemed ok but Oberlus was still in a smallish pocket.
Do you mean the distribution of kraken nests that I was talking about?
How can it be OK for them to have several nests within their space and we only one in the contested area?
Yes true they were not, so you are correct. I was not actually thinking about them. I was thinking about Wobbly wanting to test medium monsters, and where the other monsters are located. I felt they were distributed well.
I was also thinking of Empire distribution, and felt that you should have had a few more good planets around you.

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Re: Twenty-first game on the multiplayer slow game server

#228 Post by wobbly »

Daybreak wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 9:58 pm I think that a MP game is people vs people, and anything that detracts from that can spoil the game.
The 1st few multiplayer games I played in were this in its purest form. No natives, No monsters, Low specials? I found it quite dry. I also found it to still have way to much luck due to planet distribution.
Daybreak wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 9:58 pm White Kraken could have its stealth increase to say Sensor level before you can see it.
It actually becomes near useless at that stage of the game, due to its rotten speed.
Daybreak wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 9:58 pm But at end of the day, are the white Kraken and normal Krakens really needed or should they interfere in a people MP game. Not saying we can't have them, but it would be good to have the option.
I'd rather have nests balanced then out of the game. However, being able to turn nests off seems to me to be a reasonable option. Where in the UI would this go? A tick box under monsters? In the game rule tabs?

To some extent you have access to additional options if the person running the server is prepared to edit scripting files before universe generation. I guess its up to the devs how many options they want to be explicitly in the game menus, and how many they'll leave up to server-side scripting edits.
Daybreak wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 11:28 am I was also thinking of Empire distribution, and felt that you should have had a few more good planets around you.
Planet distribution is an issue that's been around forever. Tricky to fix.

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Re: Twenty-first game on the multiplayer slow game server

#229 Post by Daybreak »

wobbly wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 3:04 am
Daybreak wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 9:58 pm I think that a MP game is people vs people, and anything that detracts from that can spoil the game.
The 1st few multiplayer games I played in were this in its purest form. No natives, No monsters, Low specials? I found it quite dry. I also found it to still have way to much luck due to planet distribution.
I don't want to get rid of monsters entirely - I am not convinced there is a balanced alternative for Krakens - in one game whatever balance was decided, may be perfect, but in another, very poor. The game itself as so many variables on what may happen, so I am unsure the proposal may have some even worse ramifications.
wobbly wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 3:04 am White Kraken could have its stealth increase to say Sensor level before you can see it.
It actually becomes near useless at that stage of the game, due to its rotten speed.
Yes true - tricky
wobbly wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 3:04 am
Daybreak wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 9:58 pm But at end of the day, are the white Kraken and normal Krakens really needed or should they interfere in a people MP game. Not saying we can't have them, but it would be good to have the option.
I'd rather have nests balanced then out of the game. However, being able to turn nests off seems to me to be a reasonable option. Where in the UI would this go? A tick box under monsters? In the game rule tabs?

To some extent you have access to additional options if the person running the server is prepared to edit scripting files before universe generation. I guess its up to the devs how many options they want to be explicitly in the game menus, and how many they'll leave up to server-side scripting edits.
I would prefer the tick box method than the server scripting method, as that overall makes it easier, and it is there for any future games run here or anywhere.

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Re: Twenty-first game on the multiplayer slow game server

#230 Post by Oberlus »

Daybreak wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 6:31 am The game itself as so many variables on what may happen, so I am unsure the proposal may have some even worse ramifications.
So let's make us sure by trying it.

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Re: Twenty-first game on the multiplayer slow game server

#231 Post by wobbly »

So I can see code for planet vs planet combat, yet when combat is triggered in a system with hostile planets they don't actually fire at each other. Not sure whether that is deliberate or not.

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Re: Twenty-first game on the multiplayer slow game server

#232 Post by Daybreak »

wobbly wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 1:10 pm So I can see code for planet vs planet combat, yet when combat is triggered in a system with hostile planets they don't actually fire at each other. Not sure whether that is deliberate or not.
Kind of interesting as it could spark research into better planetary weapons and defence, however fluff wise the distance between two planetary bodies would seem to eliminate any ability to attack, at least early to mid tech at least..

Btw Wobbly I just sent nuclear weapons your way. Now it may take a year or two to get there, but then your dead!!! :evil:

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Re: Twenty-first game on the multiplayer slow game server

#233 Post by wobbly »

Daybreak wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 2:03 pm Btw Wobbly I just sent nuclear weapons your way. Now it may take a year or two to get there, but then your dead!!! :evil:
You'll be disappointed. My counter nukes are on the way too.

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Re: Twenty-first game on the multiplayer slow game server

#234 Post by Ophiuchus »

Hey everyone, from the dev meeting: please report if the expected predictions are wrong values (e.g. target value when switching focus)

one issue (switch focus industry -> defence -> industry and not get back original target industry value)
https://github.com/freeorion/freeorion/issues/3494
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

Look, ma... four combat bouts!

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Re: Twenty-first game on the multiplayer slow game server

#235 Post by Daybreak »

wobbly wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 2:25 pm
Daybreak wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 2:03 pm Btw Wobbly I just sent nuclear weapons your way. Now it may take a year or two to get there, but then your dead!!! :evil:
You'll be disappointed. My counter nukes are on the way too.
yay 2 years to party

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Re: Twenty-first game on the multiplayer slow game server

#236 Post by LienRag »

Daybreak wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 11:48 pm
LienRag wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 7:51 pm For information, after turning I gifted a ship, then tried to cancel that gift, and it caused a "segfault - core dumped".

After reloading the game, the ship wasn't marked as gifted.
Turn 73
Win 10

I tested it but it worked fine for me.
Gifted then ungifted
Gifted, clicked turn button, Revised button/ ungifted
Gifted, clicked turn button, Exited Game, Entered game, Revised button/ ungifted

Maybe Operating system?
Wrong test.
What I did was :

Clicked turn button, Gifted, ungifted

Don't remember if I revised turn between gifted and ungifted, but I believe that I did not.

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Re: Twenty-first game on the multiplayer slow game server

#237 Post by Oberlus »

LienRag wrote: Fri Oct 07, 2022 2:13 pmone Great Kraken is not uncounterable and as such not really unbalancing (it's a great help in a fight, yes, but that's what it's supposed to be), while it's true that when we get 7 Great Krakens it will be very difficult for Oberlus to defend.
You don't need to wait to have 7 great krakens.
In last battle, there were 8 krakens, only one great. I had there half of the total warships I've built, that are also more than half my total PP investment in this game (so I lost 25% of my total PPs in this game in that battle). Considering total damage and structure, if I had included in the battle my whole fleet, it would have been equivalent to 5 vs 1.

I mean, having a couple? three? kraken nests, enabled Ophiuchus to be as strong as five unlucky empires.

If it would have been equivalent to +40% army strength, it would have been bad enough. But it was +400% army strength. There is no species trait, special or natives that can counter that. Ever.

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Re: Twenty-first game on the multiplayer slow game server

#238 Post by Daybreak »

Guys

With -

* Ophiuchus's 9 krakens and rest of his fleet.
* BA has more.
* Us having 2 Xenos species
* Wobbly's great start, plus heaps of room to expand, plus his expanding fleet

Then I think you guys have won it.

Oberlus and I believe it will be impossoble to turn the game around, so we will just be playing for testing purposes.

I suggest we move on to MP22

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Re: Twenty-first game on the multiplayer slow game server

#239 Post by Oberlus »

I think we can push this a bit longer for further playtesting.

I'm not only playing to win, I'm actually interesting on playtesting for balance, but we can stop the game when enough people demand for it.

However, in general, it seems a bit awkward to end a game this soon, even with XX krakens at my gates.

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Re: Twenty-first game on the multiplayer slow game server

#240 Post by LienRag »

Oberlus wrote: Sat Oct 08, 2022 5:41 pm You don't need to wait to have 7 great krakens.
In last battle, there were 8 krakens, only one great. I had there half of the total warships I've built, that are also more than half my total PP investment in this game (so I lost 25% of my total PPs in this game in that battle). Considering total damage and structure, if I had included in the battle my whole fleet, it would have been equivalent to 5 vs 1.

I mean, having a couple? three? kraken nests, enabled Ophiuchus to be as strong as five unlucky empires.

If it would have been equivalent to +40% army strength, it would have been bad enough. But it was +400% army strength. There is no species trait, special or natives that can counter that. Ever.

Well, nobody forced you to crash your army against my blocus...
(I mean, I did, sort of, but that was because I know how to maneuver, not because of "kraken mind tricks")

If you play into your opponent's strengths, you don't get to complain that their strength is strong.

Also, we did have some uncontestable Kraken Nests, but not that many. And there were two contestables, we got one and you got one.
Granted, the one at Gacrux was easier to get for us than for you, but you are Etty, you could have captured it if you had mounted an early enough expedition for it.
Not saying that it would have been easy, but it was doable.
Actually, before Daybreak leaked that you don't have Monster Nests in your territory, we really believed that we would have to retreat quite badly.

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