Twenty-first game on the multiplayer slow game server

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Daybreak
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Re: Twenty-first game on the multiplayer slow game server

#121 Post by Daybreak »

Oberlus wrote: Fri Sep 02, 2022 5:33 pm - Change Trith from Bad Influence and Great Stability to Bad Stability and Great Influence. With Racial Purity they can cope perfectly with the stability maluses they face, and it makes more sense that an species so forced to form monospecies empires has better influence to sustain itself.
Unless this has already been addressed, although a quick SP game and it does not look like it, the Xenophobic effect on Trith is to reduce their population, is a bigger malus than the stability problem, and it affects them irrespective of whether they have captured the native planet of not. Yes they are self substaining, so they have great population, however after playing them in the last test mp21, I feel that the malus is too strong, and needs to be reduced somewhat.

I do agree that Trith should go from bad influence to great influence, but I think average stability is low enough. We have to be careful not to lower stability too much, and then play games with a higher base stability to counter that.

I mean its not like Trith are that fantastic.
Oberlus wrote: Fri Sep 02, 2022 5:33 pm - Change Eaxaw from Great Stability to Average Stability. With the changes in Racial Purity and Xenophobic trait they are better off now.
I dont agree with changing from Great Stability to Average Stability. At the moment they are playable, but for similiar reasons above we need to be careful of changes when we are using base stability currently 3 in MP21, instead of the 5 we played in MP20, so I think we should see how they perform under that lowering of stablity first.

wobbly
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Re: Twenty-first game on the multiplayer slow game server

#122 Post by wobbly »

Maybe just put Trith at Average Stability and Good Influence? I like leaving Great influence for races that are a little more ...diplomatic then Trith are. Eawax could be Good Stability? That's where they were before xenophobe malus became distance based. Mostly I haven't looked closely enough at what you changed. Your puppy, so to speak.

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Re: Twenty-first game on the multiplayer slow game server

#123 Post by Oberlus »

Daybreak, Trith were given +5 stability to cope with stability maluses from xenophobic.
Now Racial purity gives that +5 stability. That's why the change. Plus makes lots of sense, Trith seem unstable.
Same for Eaxaw.

It's the same total stability!

I've played a game with Eaxaw until turn 50 and I was doing great.

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Re: Twenty-first game on the multiplayer slow game server

#124 Post by o01eg »

That is prepared default/ folder for the game: https://freeorion-test.dedyn.io/default-mp-fo0021.7z
Gentoo Linux x64, gcc-11.2, boost-1.78.0
Ubuntu Server 22.04 x64, gcc-12, boost-1.74.0
Welcome to the slow multiplayer game at freeorion-lt.dedyn.io.Version 2024-03-15.b3de094.
Donations're welcome:BTC:bc1q007qldm6eppqcukewtfkfcj0naut9njj7audnm

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Re: Twenty-first game on the multiplayer slow game server

#125 Post by o01eg »

I've restarted server with new scripts. Check you don't have checksum error.
Gentoo Linux x64, gcc-11.2, boost-1.78.0
Ubuntu Server 22.04 x64, gcc-12, boost-1.74.0
Welcome to the slow multiplayer game at freeorion-lt.dedyn.io.Version 2024-03-15.b3de094.
Donations're welcome:BTC:bc1q007qldm6eppqcukewtfkfcj0naut9njj7audnm

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Oberlus
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Re: Twenty-first game on the multiplayer slow game server

#126 Post by Oberlus »

A last note: my playtesting for this change was based on Stability Baseline = 0. So +3 is a plus.

Daybreak
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Re: Twenty-first game on the multiplayer slow game server

#127 Post by Daybreak »

Oberlus wrote: Sat Sep 03, 2022 6:45 am Daybreak, Trith were given +5 stability to cope with stability maluses from xenophobic.
Now Racial purity gives that +5 stability. That's why the change. Plus makes lots of sense, Trith seem unstable.
Same for Eaxaw.

It's the same total stability!

I've played a game with Eaxaw until turn 50 and I was doing great.
Ok well lets test it then, but playing the game in SP mode is so much different and so easy.

Daybreak
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Re: Twenty-first game on the multiplayer slow game server

#128 Post by Daybreak »

o01eg wrote: Sat Sep 03, 2022 7:55 am I've restarted server with new scripts. Check you don't have checksum error.
I am getting the checksum error

Do I have to do something with that other zip file?

All Blue Award helped - thank you, and no checksum

BlueAward
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Re: Twenty-first game on the multiplayer slow game server

#129 Post by BlueAward »

Daybreak wrote: Sat Sep 03, 2022 10:11 am
Oberlus wrote: Sat Sep 03, 2022 6:45 am Daybreak, Trith were given +5 stability to cope with stability maluses from xenophobic.
Now Racial purity gives that +5 stability. That's why the change. Plus makes lots of sense, Trith seem unstable.
Same for Eaxaw.

It's the same total stability!

I've played a game with Eaxaw until turn 50 and I was doing great.
Ok well lets test it then, but playing the game in SP mode is so much different and so easy.
I mean, I think Eaxaw more or less play now like other empires, except being great pilots which is... great, I guess. But they have to adopt racial purity for that, and then science and influence can only be done by them. But they are free to have other species as "slaves", those can only do production, but with a bonus that does not care about stability. And you get camps to use strategically rather than be forced into that path. So this is a big change in gameplay for them, if no longer need to worry about the xenophobic harassment

Not sure if they should get better influence as race, then. It's by design your every influence producing planet gonna have better than average influence. Arguably going mono species already had that, but this is strictly better now

Guess Racial Purity is now playable for everybody who doesn't mind "role playing" as slave drivers. Think Oberlus wanted some fading stability effect to discourage dropping it when convenient / force you into a few turns of after effects (though -10 stability already would take some turns to grow back right?). If you have one species that can cover both science and influence well, and that's the capital species, then slave driving other species for production may actually be a play even if you're not a xenophobic species. I mean I sorta played like that in pre-influence times :) Suppose that was one of the aims of the changes

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Re: Twenty-first game on the multiplayer slow game server

#130 Post by BlueAward »

Daybreak wrote: Sat Sep 03, 2022 10:14 am
o01eg wrote: Sat Sep 03, 2022 7:55 am I've restarted server with new scripts. Check you don't have checksum error.
I am getting the checksum error

Do I have to do something with that other zip file?

All Blue Award helped - thank you, and no checksum
You're welcome! (one needs to download the zip and replace their "default" folder with its contents)

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Re: Twenty-first game on the multiplayer slow game server

#131 Post by Oberlus »

BlueAward wrote: Sat Sep 03, 2022 11:44 am I mean, I think Eaxaw more or less play now like other empires, except being great pilots which is... great, I guess. But they have to adopt racial purity for that, and then science and influence can only be done by them. But they are free to have other species as "slaves", those can only do production, but with a bonus that does not care about stability. And you get camps to use strategically rather than be forced into that path. So this is a big change in gameplay for them, if no longer need to worry about the xenophobic harassment.
Mostly correct.
But they have to worry about xenophobic frenzy from nearby colonies of other empires (allied or enemy). That is worse for them now: before, they got no malus from foreign planets (which made no sense at all).
And the bonus to "slaves" is relatively small, only applies to those slaves, and the slaves themselves have a big stability malus that will cancel out many important industry boosts. The idea for this change is exactly that: to not force Racial Purity empires to put up camps on every conquered planet.
BlueAward wrote: Sat Sep 03, 2022 11:44 am Not sure if they should get better influence as race, then. It's by design your every influence producing planet gonna have better than average influence. Arguably going mono species already had that, but this is strictly better now
I'm not sure either, that needs long playtesting, further than turn 200 or 300, and I didn't have the time.
The +1 influence for influence focused planets of capital species will compensate the -1IP on all non-capital species, as long as the "slavers" are not much outnumbered by the "slaves".
BlueAward wrote: Sat Sep 03, 2022 11:44 am Guess Racial Purity is now playable for everybody who doesn't mind "role playing" as slave drivers.
Or that doesn't mind "role playing" as mass murderers through concentration camps, something that hasn't changed...
And that doesn't mind not being able to use a whole bunch of policies that are incompatible with Racial Purity.


The fading effect for stability was to make happy LienRag, that thought the other meassures were not enough. I still disagree with that last point, but I was sure the fading effect was an improvement anyways.
Anyways, the immediate big stability malus to non-capital species plus the slowly building up effect of the extra stability for capital species (+0.25 per turn) makes the policy not interesting to anyone that just needs a bump on stability for a while.
BlueAward wrote: Sat Sep 03, 2022 11:44 am though -10 stability already would take some turns to grow back right?
Yes, 10 turns, or 4 if you have Capital Markets. With the fading effect it would take 20 turns.

BlueAward wrote: Sat Sep 03, 2022 11:44 am If you have one species that can cover both science and influence well, and that's the capital species, then slave driving other species for production may actually be a play even if you're not a xenophobic species.
I don't think that will be better than not playing Racial Purity and prefer Diversity and/or Colonialism/Vassalization, or than not missing the bonuses from several techs and policies due to minimum stability.

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Re: Twenty-first game on the multiplayer slow game server

#132 Post by BlueAward »

Oberlus wrote: Sat Sep 03, 2022 12:50 pm I don't think that will be better than not playing Racial Purity and prefer Diversity and/or Colonialism/Vassalization, or than not missing the bonuses from several techs and policies due to minimum stability.
Oh, I did not mean it is inbalanced or something, generally diversity etc sound better overall, however are more complicated to set up. So I guess I can see how one could want Racial Purity for early to mid game and transition off it later.

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Re: Twenty-first game on the multiplayer slow game server

#133 Post by Oberlus »

Hmmm...
Picking Racial when your non-xenophobic species have only capital and a couple of your own colonies, if you set the colonies to influence, would grant you +2 IP per turn, compared to +4 from Propaganda in that slot, or from 3 or 4 RP from Liberty. Plus the extra stability, that is seldom useful at that stage. So I hope Racial doesn't become a popular choice for early game.

If your early game shows you no invadable natives or foreign empires, then you could get some benefit from going Racial if you have a spare social slot. But as soon as you start conquering other species, the big stability malus is something to ponder. Then you either start role-playing the slaver or murderer one, or you drop Racial Purity. That sounds a bit cheesy.

Then I think I shoud script a fading stability malus to capital species too after de-adopting Racial Purity: resentment from the lost privileges or something like that (for the fluff).

Thanks for all the comments.

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Re: Twenty-first game on the multiplayer slow game server

#134 Post by wobbly »

I still get the checksum error on windows, though I seem to be able to log in and play as normal without dramas.

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Re: Twenty-first game on the multiplayer slow game server

#135 Post by Oberlus »

I play on Windows too. Copied the whole folder over the installed one and no errors.

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