Question re: Industrial Centers

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ghealy
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Question re: Industrial Centers

#1 Post by ghealy »

Can someone explain what Industrial Centers actually do? Increase supply? Production? etc.

I've read the vaguely worded Pedia. I had been researching them early in the game, but have read too many game strategies suggesting they should be research later in the game.

I forgot to research them one game and couldn't understand why my production was slow. Once researched and built, my productions jumped up almost immediately.

What needs to be in place to make it worth investing in Industrial centers?

And what needs to be in place before you build the next two levels of Industrial centers?

Appreciate any feedback.

- Gene

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Geoff the Medio
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Re: Question re: Industrial Centers

#2 Post by Geoff the Medio »

ghealy wrote:I've read the vaguely worded Pedia.
What is unclear in the pedia?
Industrial Center Pedia Article wrote:Initially provides a bonus to Industry on all Supply line connected planets with Industry focus by 0.2 per Population.
More than one in the same Supply connected Resource Group do not stack and add no extra bonus.

Greater Industrial Center refinement doubles the bonus.

Supreme Industrial Center refinement further increases the bonus to triple the base bonus.

ghealy
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Re: Question re: Industrial Centers

#3 Post by ghealy »

What was unclear was I wasn't looking where you looked. :D

In the Research window, when one clicks on Industrial Center, this is what is displayed:

Coordinating industrial activity between planets and star systems can be effectively accomplished at large centralized complexes.
Facility's large cost and build time, as well as significant future range growth potential, require strong planning to produce in location with ideal future utility. Industrial Centers come with large up-front cost, in both production resources and time, but with great opportunity for possible expansion. This makes them ideal for long-term strategies, but unattractive for empires planning on a quick victory.


Thanks for the clarification.

- Gene
Another Satisfied Customer :D

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Geoff the Medio
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Re: Question re: Industrial Centers

#4 Post by Geoff the Medio »

ghealy wrote:In the Research window, when one clicks on Industrial Center, this is what is displayed:
You skipped over the important part, right above what you quoted...
Unlocks

Technology: Greater Industrial Center
Building: Industrial Center
Both those coloured bits of text are clickable links, that take you to a page describing what is unlocked.

Also, note that at the top of the pedia, below the RP cost and minimum turns to research, it says "Unlocks Building" which tells you what the main point of a tech is.

ghealy
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Re: Question re: Industrial Centers

#5 Post by ghealy »

Agreed I should have better investigated. And now I know there might be additional info elsewhere, I'll look. But for most the tech to be researched, that detail info appears within that first window.

Appreciate you taking the time.

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MatGB
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Re: Question re: Industrial Centers

#6 Post by MatGB »

ghealy wrote:Agreed I should have better investigated. And now I know there might be additional info elsewhere, I'll look. But for most the tech to be researched, that detail info appears within that first window.

Appreciate you taking the time.
That's something we're slowly working on, the ideal is the techs should just give a broad picture, we had a problem, especially in Hulls, where Pedia entries for the hull designs themselves were updated, but the techs were frequently overlooked so you had conflcting, out of date information, which was bad. It's far better to have the specific info in just one place and we need to improve our methods for getting that done.

Having said all that, it could be done with text macros so if you change the effects you change a macro that then is called for all instances, that might be a good compromise actually.
Mat Bowles

Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

ghealy
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Re: Question re: Industrial Centers

#7 Post by ghealy »

MattGB: I can see the changes/improvement made to this game from time to time (realizing a great deal of the improvements happen inside the program and may not be visible to the player). Always making the game bette4r. It is the best, most fun game I have played in years.

If I had to say something negative about the game, it would be that it is slow -- change a planet's focus can take a couple of seconds. Even right from the start of a brand new game, there is a minimum 3-5 second lag between turns that really gets worse later in the game. Is this a compiling issue? A database update.maintenance issue? I haven't a clue. I figure some day someone will fix that. In the mean time I simply enjoy be immersed in the game for almost 2 hours each game I play..

To all of you who have a hand in this creation, Thank you. You guys Rock! :)


- Gene

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MatGB
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Re: Question re: Industrial Centers

#8 Post by MatGB »

It's, mostly, an Effects Processing issue, most of the game content is in user editable text files that has to be parsed by the C++ backend (I'm only capable of writing the frontend scripts, and then only just), and the more scripts and effects that need processing, the longer it takes.

Eg: focus change. There's on screen information about your total production, population, etc. If you change the focus of a planet, that affects the information, but it can also affect all other planets in some ways (the most obvious being the Growth focus which can increase population across your empire, which in turn affects research and production output. Changing focus in the sidepanel is one of the things that makes the game update the displayed info.

The more ships, colonies, monsters you have, the more effects that need to be processed when stuff happens. So as you get a bigger empire, and the AIs get bigger empires, things take longer to process.

For focus changes, ever since it was introduced I've preferred to do as many as possible via the Objects window rather than the sidepanel, it works a lot faster (instantaneously, effectively), but, it doesn't update the displayed info at, for example, the top of the screen, especially obvious now that we've got the 'target' output listed as well as the current. So, when I approach end game and want to turn all my research worlds into industrial worlds, I do it via Objects but I leave just the one to do via Sidepanel, as that updates the top line as well, but it takes longer.

There are, undoubtedly, efficiencies that could be found in the processing code, and possibly some of the things that currently force an update could be made to not do, but that side is way beyond me, I merely say thank you whenever someone does something that reduces lag in some way or other.
Mat Bowles

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Geoff the Medio
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Re: Question re: Industrial Centers

#9 Post by Geoff the Medio »

ghealy wrote:...change a planet's focus can take a couple of seconds.
Could you run FreeOrion, load a game that normally takes a few seconds to change focus, go into options, turn on verbose logging (in the UI tab, near the bottom), do a focus change, then quit, and reply with freeorion.log attached?

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Re: Question re: Industrial Centers

#10 Post by ghealy »

Log attached as zip file as requested. Took approximately 10 seconds to complete change in focus.
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(429.12 KiB) Downloaded 90 times

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Geoff the Medio
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Re: Question re: Industrial Centers

#11 Post by Geoff the Medio »

Can you do the same with verbose logging left off?

ghealy
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Re: Question re: Industrial Centers

#12 Post by ghealy »

You didn't tell me there would be a quiz! :D

Does it matter if it isn't the same game, or the same planet? Of course I didn't take note of which game or which planet. If it must be the same, I'll redo it with verbose on and then again with verbose off.

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Geoff the Medio
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Re: Question re: Industrial Centers

#13 Post by Geoff the Medio »

A log from any game where it takes more than a second to change focus (with verbose logging off) is fine. Maybe do a focus change once with verbose off, and then again with it on.

ghealy
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Re: Question re: Industrial Centers

#14 Post by ghealy »

Game at turn 102.

Opened existing game
Selected plant
Changed focus from Research to Industry
Via Options set logging to Verbose
Changed focus from Industry to Research.
Exited game

Trust the attached is helpful.

- Gene
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(28.06 KiB) Downloaded 85 times

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Geoff the Medio
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Re: Question re: Industrial Centers

#15 Post by Geoff the Medio »

From the non-verbose log, the stuff that happens after setting focus is:

Code: Select all

2016-03-03 15:40:21.373974 [debug] Client : About to send focus-changed signal.
2016-03-03 15:40:21.383572 [debug] Client : Issue times: planet species: 0 ship species: 0 specials: 0 techs: 0 buildings: 0 hulls/parts: 1 fields: 0
2016-03-03 15:40:21.384073 [debug] Client : Evaluation time: 4 reorder time: 0
2016-03-03 15:40:21.385592 [debug] Client : Universe::UpdateMeterEstimatesImpl on 9 objects time: 11
2016-03-03 15:40:21.448171 [debug] Client : ResearchWnd::UpdateQueue()
2016-03-03 15:40:22.549556 [debug] Client : Tech Tree Layout Preparing Tech Data
2016-03-03 15:40:25.913658 [debug] Client : Tech Tree Layout Doing Graph Layout
2016-03-03 15:40:25.914147 [debug] Client : TechTreeLayout::DoLayout creaing place holder nodes...
2016-03-03 15:40:25.914147 [debug] Client : Tech Tree Layout Creating Panels
2016-03-03 15:40:25.914999 [debug] Client : Tech Tree Layout Done
2016-03-03 15:40:25.945685 [debug] Client : ========= Production Update for empire: 1 ========
2016-03-03 15:40:25.979389 [debug] Client : ProductionQueue::Update: Simulating future turns of production queue
2016-03-03 15:40:25.982714 [debug] Client : ProductionQueue::Update: Projections took 3005 microseconds with 232.854 total Production Points
2016-03-03 15:40:26.012944 [debug] Client : MapWnd::InitStarlaneRenderingBuffers
2016-03-03 15:40:26.022543 [debug] Client : MapWnd::InitStarlaneRenderingBuffers time: 10
2016-03-03 15:40:26.034266 [debug] Client : ProductionWnd::UpdateQueue()
2016-03-03 15:40:27.844550 [debug] Client : RotatingPlanetControl::Refresh time: 6
[many similar lines]
2016-03-03 15:40:29.467387 [debug] Client : RotatingPlanetControl::Refresh time: 6
2016-03-03 15:40:29.467890 [debug] Client : Done!.
Notably, "ResearchWnd::UpdateQueue" takes 1.1 seconds, "Tech Tree Layout Preparing Tech Data" takes 3.4 seconds, "ProductionWnd::UpdateQueue" takes 1.8 seconds, doing a bunch of "RotatingPlanetControl::Refresh" collectively takes 1.6 seconds.

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