Incorrect Stealth - maybe just GUI

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Daybreak
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Incorrect Stealth - maybe just GUI

#1 Post by Daybreak »

as per heading

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wobbly
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Re: Incorrect Stealth - maybe just GUI

#2 Post by wobbly »

Welcome to the most annoying and confusing part of flux stealth (and stealth in general). So meter growth (e.g. PP change, troop growth, stealth changes etc.) happens towards the end of turn processing. It happens after movement and combat. Currently that ship is 0 stealth and if it hits an enemy it will be 0 stealth, as the combat occurs before its stealth meter updates to 5.

This makes the timing of movement, stopping and combat fairly important. For instance mine are 35 at max. stealth and a dyson is 30 detection. I can move into a dyson as my stealth will be 35 on arrival. The dyson will still blockade and stopping drops the stealth to 5, so it'll become visible and I can not remain stationary on the dyson. Likewise when my flux ships attacked you at Na Atibu they arrived with 35 stealth and you were unable to see them in the 1st round of combat. This occurred even though they were set to initiate combat, as the stealth meter had not yet updated.

Daybreak
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Re: Incorrect Stealth - maybe just GUI

#3 Post by Daybreak »

wobbly wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 6:49 am dyson is 30 detection
30 is their detection range. What is their detection strength? You say 30, but how do you know that?
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=12598&p=114369&sid= ... c0#p114369
wobbly wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 6:49 am Likewise when my flux ships attacked you at Na Atibu they arrived with 35 stealth and you were unable to see them in the 1st round of combat. This occurred even though they were set to initiate combat, as the stealth meter had not yet updated.
I saw that
1) If you arrived with initiate combat, then I should be able to detect you first round.
2) if you were stting there already and then initiated combat, then I feel its fair enough that I dont detect you first round.

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Oberlus
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Re: Incorrect Stealth - maybe just GUI

#4 Post by Oberlus »

Daybreak wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 7:59 am
wobbly wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 6:49 am dyson is 30 detection
30 is their detection range. What is their detection strength? You say 30, but how do you know that?
Oberlus wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 8:45 pm Monsters have range = strength.

I meant that for monsters range and strength are the same value. Range is 30? Strength is 30.

And that's why it makes no sense to put a second icon in monsters: both will show the same number.

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Re: Incorrect Stealth - maybe just GUI

#5 Post by wobbly »

Daybreak wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 7:59 am I saw that
1) If you arrived with initiate combat, then I should be able to detect you first round.
2) if you were stting there already and then initiated combat, then I feel its fair enough that I dont detect you first round.
I don't necessarily agree (or disagree) but I'll bring up the larger issue which has been around for ever. When an attack ship moves into an ion storm and hits you it is not stealthed. When an attack ship jumps you by moving from an ion storm to outside the ion storm it is stealthed.

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Oberlus
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Re: Incorrect Stealth - maybe just GUI

#6 Post by Oberlus »

wobbly wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 8:21 am When an attack ship moves into an ion storm and hits you it is not stealthed. When an attack ship jumps you by moving from an ion storm to outside the ion storm it is stealthed.
I would like that changed (FIXED!) so much...

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Re: Incorrect Stealth - maybe just GUI

#7 Post by Ophiuchus »

regarding the OP, there are multiple issues.

0)
flux stealth is complicated, brittle and needs a while to master. i like it ;)

1)
the way that stealth is subject to the +1 turn delay as all meter effects are as wobbly commented - which is often so surprising that it is "broken" in a way (e.g. the ion storm effect). to fix this we would need some kind of pre-movement effect application.

2)
what is the UI showing? the fleet UI sais it has 0 stealth, but the mouse over sais it is 5. (i think the mouse over gives the projected stealth value?)

daybreak, is that a newly build ship or an existing one?

3)
we have multiple visibility updates during turn processing, so stealth, detection, and turn processing interact (e.g. sitrep from a ship arrival in a system, which gets invisible "at the same moment" because the system provides some stealth to it)
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

Look, ma... four combat bouts!

Daybreak
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Re: Incorrect Stealth - maybe just GUI

#8 Post by Daybreak »

Oberlus wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 8:07 am
Oberlus wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 8:45 pm Monsters have range = strength.
I meant that for monsters range and strength are the same value. Range is 30? Strength is 30.

And that's why it makes no sense to put a second icon in monsters: both will show the same number.
True - but it creates confusion.

If we have a second icon, then -
1. No confusion for ships, monsters or planets.
2. At some stage if it is decided that range does not equal strength for monsters, then simple to change.
3. Would also allow us to have variety for Detection strength for ships and planets, instead of one Empire detection strength.

Anyway - not going to pursue this.

However Pedia should be updated for Monsters. The pedia on a Dyson forest has nothing about Detection strength.
Ophiuchus wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 10:24 am 2)
what is the UI showing? the fleet UI sais it has 0 stealth, but the mouse over sais it is 5. (i think the mouse over gives the projected stealth value?)

daybreak, is that a newly build ship or an existing one?
Existing ship for a number of turns.

image above was when I arrived athe system

This image is becuase I am sitting there, so flux interference comes into play.

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Ophiuchus
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Re: Incorrect Stealth - maybe just GUI

#9 Post by Ophiuchus »

Daybreak wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 12:37 pm However Pedia should be updated for Monsters. The pedia on a Dyson forest has nothing about Detection strength.
+1, should be shown in pedia for each monster, or at least mentioned. Preferrably done in generic monster text template. Could you pleas open an UI issue for that?
Ophiuchus wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 10:24 am This image is becuase I am sitting there, so flux interference comes into play.
so the image is correct after a turn sitting? The original UI is still weird - that is not like it supposed to be in my opinion.
The flux interference malus was already there when you arrived, so it should have been in effects accounting, which is used for generating those info lines about effects. (More precisely, the flux interference effect happened after your movement and the effects accounting should have shown that).
I was weary that it could be wrong because it shows the next-turn prediction, but that should also have included flux interference.
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

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Daybreak
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Re: Incorrect Stealth - maybe just GUI

#10 Post by Daybreak »

Ophiuchus wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 1:12 pm
Daybreak wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 12:37 pm However Pedia should be updated for Monsters. The pedia on a Dyson forest has nothing about Detection strength.
+1, should be shown in pedia for each monster, or at least mentioned. Preferrably done in generic monster text template. Could you pleas open an UI issue for that?
Unfortunately I don't know how to do that.
Ophiuchus wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 10:24 am This image is becuase I am sitting there, so flux interference comes into play.
so the image is correct after a turn sitting? The original UI is still weird - that is not like it supposed to be in my opinion.
The flux interference malus was already there when you arrived, so it should have been in effects accounting, which is used for generating those info lines about effects. (More precisely, the flux interference effect happened after your movement and the effects accounting should have shown that).
I was wary that it could be wrong because it shows the next-turn prediction, but that should also have included flux interference.
[/quote]

Yes, so in laymen terms, the original image showing zero stealth is correct and just the hover does not show the flux interference malus of 30.

Daybreak
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Re: Incorrect Stealth - maybe just GUI

#11 Post by Daybreak »

Had not thought of that

Original Image
Just switched from non - agression to agression before landing. That image was taken that turn after landing

Second image
Been sitting there for awhile in Agression mode.

Edit - your post disappeared Wobbly

wobbly
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Re: Incorrect Stealth - maybe just GUI

#12 Post by wobbly »

Daybreak wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 9:42 pm Had not thought of that

Original Image
Just switched from non - agression to agression before landing. That image was taken that turn after landing

Second image
Been sitting there for awhile in Agression mode.

Edit - your post disappeared Wobbly
Yeah I deleted. Didn't realize you'd already read it. Pretty sure my post was wrong anyway, as it'd show more then +15 for the hull.

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