Fuel vs Supply—feedback needed

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MatGB
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Fuel vs Supply—feedback needed

#1 Post by MatGB » Sun Apr 03, 2016 5:08 am

Now that Geoff's got the new supply system working, I need some feedback on the balance of fuel and supply and how they interact. So, for those playing with recent test versions (in which systems in your supply are ringed with your colour, not just starlanes, and no system can be in the supply of more than one player), some questions and requested observations:

1) Have you found you use fuel parts more?
2) If you are using fuel, at what tech level do you find you cease to do so? (eg: Orbital Construction, Gravitic Architecture, Galactic Infrastructure)
3) Do you ever research the more advanced fuel parts?
4) Can you imagine ever designing a ship using the Zero Point Fuel Generator?
5) Are you using the Logistics focus more often?
6) Are you building Space Elevators more often?


Personal observations: Playing on High starlanes is surprisingly more of a challenge, because supply propagation can easily wrap around your attacking fleet I find I need to leave pickets to guard my supply lines as I invade. I think that's a good thing. I'm more convinced than before that supply is to easy to get in the mid to late game, I tend to get Gravitic and Galactic very soon after each other and from that point on I'm dominating supply and not needing fuel at all, I think that's a balance problem. I strongly suspect one of the two will need to lose the supply bonus completely, the other will possibly need to be toned down (Galactic could do something else, Gravitic could negate large world supply penalties).

I think fuel should be a part that you choose to include up until the end game, whether or not should be an actual choice depending on circumstance, currently I dump it from virtually all designs as soon as I've got either engine or shield parts, and ships with few internal parts should suffer because of it compared to lines that have plenty. I definitely don't want it to be that you have to put fuel into all designs, but currently I don't think you need to at all and that's also not right.
Mat Bowles

Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

AndrewW
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Re: Fuel vs Supply—feedback needed

#2 Post by AndrewW » Sun Apr 03, 2016 9:43 am

MatGB wrote:1) Have you found you use fuel parts more?
Nope, but never really have used them.
MatGB wrote:2) If you are using fuel, at what tech level do you find you cease to do so? (eg: Orbital Construction, Gravitic Architecture, Galactic Infrastructure)
N/A
MatGB wrote:3) Do you ever research the more advanced fuel parts?
When I'm just throwing things into the list to use up research points after I've gotten what I want researched.
MatGB wrote:4) Can you imagine ever designing a ship using the Zero Point Fuel Generator?
Imagine, perhaps but doubtful in my case.
MatGB wrote:5) Are you using the Logistics focus more often?
Nope, almost never use it anyways.
MatGB wrote:6) Are you building Space Elevators more often?
Nope, again almost never use it anyways.

slv
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Re: Fuel vs Supply—feedback needed

#3 Post by slv » Sun Apr 03, 2016 9:58 am

MatGB wrote:1) Have you found you use fuel parts more?
2) If you are using fuel, at what tech level do you find you cease to do so? (eg: Orbital Construction, Gravitic Architecture, Galactic Infrastructure)
3) Do you ever research the more advanced fuel parts?
4) Can you imagine ever designing a ship using the Zero Point Fuel Generator?
5) Are you using the Logistics focus more often?
6) Are you building Space Elevators more often.
1)No. Still 0 fuel parts for combat vessels and as many as possible for scouts.
2)-
3)No
4)No
5)More or less the same frequency
6)More or less the same frequency
For 5 and 6 I use space elevators/logistics focus only in early game when I found something really good (growth bonus/computorium moon/ etc.) not connected with my empire. As soon as I get to midgame I tend to colonise like crazy and my supply covering is good even with the change. In case I researched organic hulls an effect from the change is very small since I can afford to leave ships at important systems to prevent supply propagation.

I would really like to see fuel having higher impact. I may be too insane but I think removing total fuel regen inside supply lines can help. Make it so stationary ships inside supply lines regenerate 1 fuel per turn and travel inside supply doesn't take fuel.

I don't even see the problem with Gravitic/Galactic, my fuel/supply problems are erased completely way before I research them (possibly my research path is sketchy, I feel that Automated Automatons are a bit broken, so I like rushing it, and if I did then the flat bonus makes colonising small worlds worthy).

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Re: Fuel vs Supply—feedback needed

#4 Post by UrshMost » Mon Apr 04, 2016 7:02 pm

MatGB wrote: 1) Have you found you use fuel parts more?
2) If you are using fuel, at what tech level do you find you cease to do so? (eg: Orbital Construction, Gravitic Architecture, Galactic Infrastructure)
3) Do you ever research the more advanced fuel parts?
4) Can you imagine ever designing a ship using the Zero Point Fuel Generator?
5) Are you using the Logistics focus more often?
6) Are you building Space Elevators more often?
1) No
2) N/A
3) No
4) Theoretically, in a some super long game in a gigantic galaxy, where it was advantageous to have far ranging scouts but they would also need superior stealth.... ok, I guess not.*
5) a few times now, never before.
6) the same as before; maybe one every few games.

I play with the default settings and 300 systems, 12 AIs, random galaxy shape.

*If it was possible to have perfectly cloaked ships unless attacking, then I could see doing long range missions deep into enemy territory to take out a strategic target, like their solar hull planet or a planet that gave them a big boost in something.
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Bromstarzan
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Re: Fuel vs Supply—feedback needed

#5 Post by Bromstarzan » Mon Apr 04, 2016 9:00 pm

I think this is a very interesting discussion and putting in a little effort to balance the game better with respect to fuel consumption could result in a lot of fun, gamewise.

Now, I'm far too inexperienced with FO game-play to provide constructive feedback, but I can at least support the idea that it would be fun to extend the importance of logistics, perhaps in similar ways as the milkcows operated during WWII (with some into-the-future-technology, that is). Just to elevate the necessity to take fuel (more) into account when playing the later phases of the game. It might appear as "micro-management", something I guess we want to get away from, not sure...

I've had a really busy week with life, so not much FO gameplay, but I'll get back to it in a jiffy!
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MatGB
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Re: Fuel vs Supply—feedback needed

#6 Post by MatGB » Mon Apr 04, 2016 11:52 pm

Feedback so far is exactly what I expected and concurs with my experience, which I didn't want to just assume, so thanks guys, if anyone else has feedback that'd be good.

One thing I did in my most recent game: midgame, conquered some natives at the edge of an AI space and into the area I was going to be moving into soon. Because they were out of supply (extreme edge for me) and bvecause I had nascent AI, Adaptive Automation and Distributed Thought, I put them on Logistics for a few turns so that a) they could reach the main supply quicker and b) they might disrupt the AI a bit and also refuel my stealthed scout that was a few jumps further into AI territory.

I ended up keeping it on logistics for awhile, as it got such good supply it was overwhelming the AI completely, none of the AI systems could reach each other, AI ships were running out of fuel, etc. Nasty in effect, possible unbalancingly so, need to make more observations but it has the potential to be quite powerful as a game effect, not only was my invasion on the southern half of the empire doing well, but reinforcements were unable to come in as there was no fuel, etc.
Mat Bowles

Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

Scara
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Re: Fuel vs Supply—feedback needed

#7 Post by Scara » Thu Apr 07, 2016 8:15 pm

I have been more often with fighers busy cutting incoming enemy supplylines, if it is possible to push them back with space elevators or the logistic focus I would maybe use them more often.
Haven't tested this so far I guess...
Using organic ships that regenerate fuel I don't make use of fuel ship parts. Most of the time my fighters are in close supply range.
I try to find a white or blue star to build energy scouts, or use the spacial hull that is pretty early available.
I play small games most of the time 150 Systems, so midgame I already have enough supply get nearly everywhere.
I must admit I haven't played updated versions for about three weeks, but I got the supply circles already.
If there has changed something recently I might not got it.

Bluehand
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Re: Fuel vs Supply—feedback needed

#8 Post by Bluehand » Fri Apr 08, 2016 5:24 pm

MatGB wrote: 1) Have you found you use fuel parts more?
2) If you are using fuel, at what tech level do you find you cease to do so? (eg: Orbital Construction, Gravitic Architecture, Galactic Infrastructure)
3) Do you ever research the more advanced fuel parts?
4) Can you imagine ever designing a ship using the Zero Point Fuel Generator?
5) Are you using the Logistics focus more often?
6) Are you building Space Elevators more often?
1) Yes, if I'm playing a research/stealth game and want to take planets behind enemy lines. Not if I'm playing high production steamroller of battleships games.
2) Depends mostly on when I switch to the energy line of hulls.
3) As a low priority for scouts through the mid game.
4) At that point I'm usually rolling with solar hulls anyway.
5) Playing a game with Gysache with troop consumption I took a tiny enemy planet just inside their territory and changed it to logistics which cut off some of their other planets. This prevented them from recolonizing when I chaos waved them. All this to avoid having to deal with limited numbers of 1/4 power troopships.
6) Slightly.
Code or patches I post are released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

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