Feedback needed: Production & Research Priorities

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Vezzra
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Re: Feedback needed: Production Priorities

#16 Post by Vezzra » Sun Jun 05, 2016 12:49 pm

MatGB wrote:So, I'm going to do a simple balance pass for research priorities now so we've got at least something in there but in a way that it doesn't severely hamper the AI, then during the next cycle we can redo the whole paradigm and make sure the AI can handle the more complex colonising choices that it implies. Make sense?
Yes, please, very much. I'd even prefer if you'd keep any changes to where the species trait boni/mali apply to a minimum before the release (as much as I like these changes), because that can easily cause unforeseen issues (balance and AI wise), and I want to keep the potential for even more issues than we already have on our list as small as possible.

Currently I have the impression that our list of issues that need to be resolved for the release is growing faster than we work through it, so I think we really need to concentrate more on solving the already existing items on our todo list instead of adding new ones. ;)

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MatGB
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Re: Feedback needed: Production Priorities

#17 Post by MatGB » Sun Jun 05, 2016 2:13 pm

Yeah, it needs doing but most of it should have been done months ago (it was due for the previous Release but was a brand new feature and there wasn't time to even test it). I'm fairly sure the AI isn't disadvantaged by the minor changes I'm making, if I noticed a problem (and I am testing stuff extensively, naturally, because, y'know, I get to play many many games and call it playtesting) then I'd tone down things, basically I'm going to leave pretty much everything as is except assigning a few research bonuses to before the multiplier, then we can do the whole thing through properly—I might also jump the Ultimate bonus down from 400 to 300, as it really is too much, seriously, play as Egassem and get the first two production techs, look at your homeworld for the bonus.
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Toastmartin
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Re: Feedback needed: Production Priorities

#18 Post by Toastmartin » Wed Jun 08, 2016 1:46 pm

Did a game with egassem. Captured two enemy homeworlds with the starting design frigates (pack of 5 for each homeworld). They didn't stand a chance. The homeworlds were to far away, but I had so much production that the outpost were not a problem either. (150 Stars, 6 AIs) So, jes at the current itteration egassem industry seems to much.

But what was wrong with the technology boni/mali not being affected by racial traits? So now you are toning the racial traits down for them to be not overpowered in the late game. But in the late game your empire usually consists of different species anyway, so you won't feel the boni/mali of your home species so much either way. But your change makes the species less destinced in the early game. Thats a little bit sad.

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Re: Feedback needed: Production Priorities

#19 Post by MatGB » Mon Jun 13, 2016 11:10 pm

Toastmartin wrote:Did a game with egassem. Captured two enemy homeworlds with the starting design frigates (pack of 5 for each homeworld). They didn't stand a chance. The homeworlds were to far away, but I had so much production that the outpost were not a problem either. (150 Stars, 6 AIs) So, jes at the current itteration egassem industry seems to much.
Yup, I'll be toning the bonus down ASAP from 400% to 300%, which will still be powerful but not as game breaking, might also reduce their troop bonus a bit. I was fairly sure they would be powerful with the changes, but it wasn't till I saw the numbers in game, especially in the early game, that I realised just how powerful it would be.
But what was wrong with the technology boni/mali not being affected by racial traits? So now you are toning the racial traits down for them to be not overpowered in the late game. But in the late game your empire usually consists of different species anyway, so you won't feel the boni/mali of your home species so much either way. But your change makes the species less destinced in the early game. Thats a little bit sad.
The existing racial trait bonuses were deliberately high so they could do at least something in order that they worked, there was a limitation within the game on how/when effects were applied that has now been updated.

We want the traits to mean something, reducing the total number of the bonus but applying it to a lot more things, that overall strengthens the effects of the traits—getting the balance right with it is going to be interesting and it'll probably take a few iterative passes.

And I fundamentally disagree with you about the change making species less distinct in the early game, as you've said with the Egassem, they are now incredibly powerful, especially in the early game where their production advantage outstrips other races more balanced approach. Right now, setting up a colony set to industry with a bad industry species is not such a good idea, it's in the very early game that the modifers make the most difference as both the early game techs now get the bonus/malus: Egassem benefit, Etty suffer. Which is as it should be.

The problem is that the difference is probably too great.
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Re: Feedback needed: Production Priorities

#20 Post by MatGB » Mon Jun 20, 2016 1:10 am

Right, done research:
Prioritised and balanced research and production bonuses

I also did some tweaks based on above feedback, Robotic Production is now after species bonus, partially for flavour as above, partially as it means one of the first two is, the other isn't, and partially because with it affected Egassem were, well, horrible (seriously, turn 138 conquest win on the quickstart setting).

I also toned down Ultimate to be 300% not 400%, and made Bad 75% not 50%, which is inline with the population bonuses which always used to be affected by everything, which works for now.

Oh, to replace Robotic Population being there I put Industry Centre in, giving more of a choice for early game techs (I normally rush Solar and research IC when I'm about to conquer one) as it's a nice bonus for Good Industry species now.

I hope I've got all the research bonus effects, but I nearly missed a few, odds are that something slid through the gaps—I deliberately made several population bonus specials affected by the species effects, putting Exobots on Ancient Ruins now means you get more of a research penalty, etc. That's deliberate and I think it works well, but we may need to tweak numbers going forward.

As always, feedback wanted. I need/hope to get the stringtable updated to reflect some of this at a basic level before Release, but I also hope we can do more, alongside the AI team, to make virtually everything affected by the traits to make species more differentiated and unique.
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Vezzra
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Re: Feedback needed: Production Priorities

#21 Post by Vezzra » Mon Jun 20, 2016 6:36 am

MatGB wrote:I need/hope to get the stringtable updated to reflect some of this at a basic level before Release
Yep, definitely necessary...

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