Bad spawn. Like really bad.

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oond
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Bad spawn. Like really bad.

#1 Post by oond » Tue Feb 07, 2017 5:14 am

Maybe we could avoid spawns this bad?
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Screenshot 2017-02-06 21.11.29.jpg
this spawn 0/10 would not repeat
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MatGB
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Re: Bad spawn. Like really bad.

#2 Post by MatGB » Tue Feb 07, 2017 5:23 am

Which version?

With the current test version it's a bug as you can't get past the monster due to a change in the backend code that messed the blockade system up, but in the Release and most other tests, plus hopefully this weeks test, it's only a Maintenance Ship, you can get past that with anything with at least 10 structure, which includes your frigate and colony ship. They're specifically designed to be annoying but not deadly: there are some limits on the bigger tougher monsters, if it was a Sentinel that would be really bad.

And, if you've got a warship sat there, supply propagates through, with only 3 damage you only need a Defence Grid to be safe.
Mat Bowles

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defaultuser
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Re: Bad spawn. Like really bad.

#3 Post by defaultuser » Thu Feb 09, 2017 12:58 am

I wouldn't be thrilled with that start, especially as you seem to have close quarters there, but I've had similar ones. As Mat says, you have to work with it. You can build scouts on medium hulls that will slip past, and outpost ships will get through although their utility is low until you have better warships to open the supply lines.

defaultuser
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Re: Bad spawn. Like really bad.

#4 Post by defaultuser » Thu May 04, 2017 12:03 am

I thought of this thread when I started my latest. Note that blocker for me is a Sentinel. Not that I mind, I think this will be an interesting game.
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defaultuser
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Re: Bad spawn. Like really bad.

#5 Post by defaultuser » Thu May 04, 2017 12:14 am

Oh, and I forgot to mention this. The inhabited planet there is high-tech with more firepower!
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Dilvish
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Re: Bad spawn. Like really bad.

#6 Post by Dilvish » Thu May 04, 2017 1:14 am

defaultuser wrote:I thought of this thread when I started my latest. Note that blocker for me is a Sentinel. Not that I mind, I think this will be an interesting game.
I'm not sure the AI is still so weak that you could really recover from such a tough start -- I'll be curious to hear how it goes for you.

Even if you do wind up able to recover from that with the current AIs, that would be an unfair start in a multiplayer game and we shouldn't count on the AI being weak enough to make up for that.

I am inclined to think we should make a SystemBisectsGalaxy condition (**edit I suppose what I am talking about here would actually be a boolean ValueRef, but see my post below for a link to some other related ideas **) and then use that in the locations requirement/exclusion for Ancient Ruins. It might be a bit stricter than we actually need (I wouldn't bother trying to figure out if there are really empires in both sides, or if maybe one side only has a couple systems), but I'd be fine with being a little overstrict like that, and I don't think it should be too expensive of a computation.
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Oberlus
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Re: Bad spawn. Like really bad.

#7 Post by Oberlus » Thu May 04, 2017 8:08 am

Dilvish wrote:I am inclined to think we should make a SystemBisectsGalaxy condition and then use that in the locations requirement/exclusion for Ancient Ruins. It might be a bit stricter than we actually need (I wouldn't bother trying to figure out if there are really empires in both sides, or if maybe one side only has a couple systems), but I'd be fine with being a little overstrict like that, and I don't think it should be too expensive of a computation.
That SystemBisectsGalaxy sounds perfect to me. And the extra computation shouldn't be a problem even if it is expensive since that would be done only at creation of galaxy, right?

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Geoff the Medio
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Re: Bad spawn. Like really bad.

#8 Post by Geoff the Medio » Thu May 04, 2017 8:42 am

Oberlus wrote:And the extra computation shouldn't be a problem even if it is expensive since that would be done only at creation of galaxy, right?
Such a function might be useful in other contexts as well, but that's not really a problem.

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Vezzra
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Re: Bad spawn. Like really bad.

#9 Post by Vezzra » Thu May 04, 2017 12:40 pm

@Dilvish: Just curious (as I've been watching you adding things to your todo list since you joined), how many items are on your legendary list? And how old are the oldest ones? ;)

defaultuser
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Re: Bad spawn. Like really bad.

#10 Post by defaultuser » Thu May 04, 2017 4:32 pm

Dilvish wrote:Even if you do wind up able to recover from that with the current AIs, that would be an unfair start in a multiplayer game and we shouldn't count on the AI being weak enough to make up for that.
Eh, wasn't that bad. I was playing Etty, so my firepower was better than average. Once I colonized the few planets I had, I concentrated on building warships. As the only way in was blocked, I didn't have to worry too much about the neighbors causing trouble either.

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Dilvish
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Re: Bad spawn. Like really bad.

#11 Post by Dilvish » Thu May 04, 2017 4:45 pm

Vezzra wrote: how many items are on your legendary list? And how old are the oldest ones? ;)
Hmm, I think I had better start being more careful to refer to it as a reminder list rather than as a formal to-do list. :D If you must ask, it looks like it has Quite a Few entries and the first entry looks a bit over three years old. I think we've already taken care of at least most of that one about as much as I had intended, although I periodically still muse about making a kind of sitrep hotlink that could add an item to your build queue., What do you think, should I take that entry off my list now? The next on the list was a 0.4.4 planning post, so that should surely come off now, and so I've done so now. I see quite a few others that are probably finished also, but will need a bit more thought as to whether they are really finished well enough to be removed. But I should probably be aggressive with that, as the list is a bit on the cumbersome side now. I'll bookmark this post to remind myself to curate my reminder list, :D :D :D


I also find on it some notes there from the last time I had galaxy partitioning on my mind. My focus then had been on the Experimentors, but maybe the simpler, stricter approach I was contemplating above could also work fine for them.
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LGM-Doyle
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Re: Bad spawn. Like really bad.

#12 Post by LGM-Doyle » Thu May 04, 2017 8:57 pm

The functionality you are describing was added in
Fix experimentor system sunders galaxy #834
to prevent the Experimentors position from being able to bisect the galaxy.

It was tested with multiple Experimentor worlds. Crazy fun, but unwinnable.

The tag CAN_ALTER_STARLANES indicates that the monster can't be placed in a location where it combined with any/all other starlane altering monsters could disconnect some part of the galaxy. Adding it to a monster will mean that there has to be a route around the monster.

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Dilvish
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Re: Bad spawn. Like really bad.

#13 Post by Dilvish » Thu May 04, 2017 10:48 pm

LGM-Doyle wrote:The functionality you are describing was added in
Fix experimentor system sunders galaxy #834
to prevent the Experimentors position from being able to bisect the galaxy.
Ah, thanks for that link, I had missed that when it was done. That certainly seems to cover the Experimentors just fine, and would not take a whole lot of extension/adaptation to be able to apply to a special like the Ancient Ruins. Besides being able to apply to a special rather than a starting monster spawn, I am inclined to think that since the presence of a Sentinel is not such a long term block as the Experimentor system is, we would want to just look at bisection with regards to just the system under contemplation, rather than considering all other sources of a similar restriction as you did for the Experimentors. And then there is the more minor issue of the tag name to be used in this case, since the issue here does not stem from modifying starlanes. I think I would lean towards the rather simple "DONT_SPLIT_GALAXY".
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defaultuser
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Re: Bad spawn. Like really bad.

#14 Post by defaultuser » Fri May 05, 2017 6:10 pm

On the whole, a situation like the one I experienced would probably be a much tougher challenge for the AI or a new player. An experienced player like me has faced similar problems in the past and worked out techniques for dealing with them. Playing cluster with low starlanes as I do is particularly prone to blockades of one sort or another.

Here's one I had some time back:

http://www.freeorion.org/forum/viewtopi ... =2&t=10109

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