Feedback Imperial Stockpile (Rev 4,5). Unlimited input Rulez

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Ophiuchus
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Re: Feedback Imperial Stockpile (Rev 4,5). Unlimited input R

#16 Post by Ophiuchus » Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:08 pm

Geoff the Medio wrote:
Oberlus wrote:GGs give no supply at all, regardless of technologies or buildings.
Also regardless of whether the planet has population (with GG or the one receiving supply from it)?
VERY_BAD_SUPPLY is missing [[STANDARD_SUPPLY_GROWTH]] ill post a fix
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Ophiuchus
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Re: Feedback Imperial Stockpile (Rev 4,5). Unlimited input R

#17 Post by Ophiuchus » Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:15 pm

i posted a PR-1996

@Oberlus, if you dont like to git, you could also manually add that [[STANDARD_SUPPLY_GROWTH]] manually in the default/scripting/species/common/supply.macros.

There are some questions though.
* not sure if NO_SUPPLY should have supply growth or not (now it hasnt)
* is there anywhere a decrease of supply or that missing as well? (e.g. when depopulating planet)
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Geoff the Medio
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Re: Feedback Imperial Stockpile (Rev 4,5). Unlimited input R

#18 Post by Geoff the Medio » Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:19 pm

Ophiuchus wrote:* is there anywhere a decrease of supply or that missing as well? (e.g. when depopulating planet)
The supply meter should still be limited by the max supply meter in C++, so if that drops during a depopulation, the supply meter should drop with it.

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Oberlus
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Re: Feedback Imperial Stockpile (Rev 4,5). Unlimited input R

#19 Post by Oberlus » Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:55 pm

Thank you, Ophiucus, that fix solved the problem with supply.

I'm in turn 165 of my first game since new Sly changes and so far I can tell they played by me are anymore OP when compared to other species played by AIs, no doubt the more handicapped playable species. One Laenfa is doing particularly great, all its stats are rocketing, in some cases it has more than the other 9 empires together. The other Sly in the map, AI, is the worst empire.
Side note: AI keeps bringing ships to play crashcars with my fieldmines, I assume it is because there is another occupied planet in the system that it wants to conquer, but it never has enough troops together because troopers die off to my mines before. Would be great for AIs to designate a free-of-enemies rally point close to the objective where gather and group in two fleets the armed and unarmed ships that will participate in the invasion?

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Oberlus
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Re: Feedback Imperial Stockpile (Rev 4,5). Unlimited input R

#20 Post by Oberlus » Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:21 pm

Side effect of rearranging all tech priorities is that good population trait got boosted, and now the species that have it are OP. is different now, but not necessarily unbalanced. It has less weight at start, because it does not affect environment modifier and homeworld bonus, and gains importance as you get more techs that increase population.

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Ouaz
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Re: Feedback Imperial Stockpile (Rev 4,5). Unlimited input R

#21 Post by Ouaz » Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:11 pm

Doing the FR translation, I noticed this:

#####
Great stockpile x2:
#####

Code: Select all

GOOD_STOCKPILE_DESC
+	Great [[metertype METER_STOCKPILE]]: 300%

GREAT_STOCKPILE_DESC
++	Great [[metertype METER_STOCKPILE]]: 1000%
Shouldn't it be "Good [[metertype METER_STOCKPILE]]: 300%" ?


#####
There are no label for "Bad Stockpiling" and "Good Stockpiling " although there are in stockpile.macros.
#####

Code: Select all

AVERAGE_STOCKPILE_LABEL
%2% Average Stockpiling

GREAT_STOCKPILE_LABEL
%2% Great Stockpiling

ULTIMATE_STOCKPILE_LABEL
%2% Ultimate Stockpiling
Shouldn't be added:

Code: Select all

BAD_STOCKPILE_LABEL
%2% Bad Stockpiling

GOOD_STOCKPILE_LABEL
%2% Good Stockpiling
#####
Minus signs are missing or wrong formatting
#####

Code: Select all

NO_STOCKPILE_DESC
--	No [[metertype METER_STOCKPILE]]

BAD_STOCKPILE_DESC
	Bad [[metertype METER_STOCKPILE]]: 50%
"--" instead of "−−" before "No [[metertype METER_STOCKPILE]]"
"−" missing before "Bad [[metertype METER_STOCKPILE]]: 50%"

####

Let me know if these fixes are justified so I can make a PR.

EDIT: done PR #2008

####
Last edited by Ouaz on Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Feedback Imperial Stockpile (Rev 4,5). Unlimited input R

#22 Post by Ophiuchus » Mon Feb 19, 2018 1:02 pm

Ouaz wrote: ####
...
Let me know if these fixes are justified so I can make a PR.

####
Thanks, I think all these make sense.

Regarding AVERAGE_STOCKPILE_LABEL: Should the average stockpile be shown in species description or not?
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Geoff the Medio
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Re: Feedback Imperial Stockpile (Rev 4,5). Unlimited input R

#23 Post by Geoff the Medio » Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:54 pm

Ophiuchus wrote:[Should the average stockpile be shown in species description or not?
I think "average" ability is something is only shown for humans in most cases.

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Re: Feedback Imperial Stockpile (Rev 4,5). Unlimited input R

#24 Post by Ophiuchus » Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:48 pm

Geoff the Medio wrote:
Ophiuchus wrote:[Should the average stockpile be shown in species description or not?
I think "average" ability is something is only shown for humans in most cases.
At the moment the average stockpile is shown for all species..
Here is a PR-2007 which fixes this.
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Oberlus
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Re: Feedback Imperial Stockpile (Rev 4) - Unlimited input Ru

#25 Post by Oberlus » Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:21 pm

Geoff the Medio wrote:
Oberlus wrote:I'm not used used to the side effect of the unlimited IS input: you'll never see again the warning icon for excess production.
Should probably change the warning to show up if any PP are being put into the stockpile then.
Bump this.
Using non-stockpiling species, I like to let some PPs (5, 10, no more) to get in the IS, for example when a project is finishing and I'm waiting for a tech that will kick in next turn or so because I want to use it in the next ship design I'll queue into production. But sometimes I forget about this, I let the production queue empty for more turns than desired, say 4 turns, and here we are, with 125 PPs in the IS that I will not use in eons.

Please, make the red warning icon appear when IS input > IS max. output.

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Dilvish
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Re: Feedback Imperial Stockpile (Rev 4) - Unlimited input Ru

#26 Post by Dilvish » Tue Feb 20, 2018 12:35 am

Oberlus wrote:Please, make the red warning icon appear when IS input > IS max. output.
That sounds to me like a fine trigger point for the icon to appear, although for its significance I think a yellow or orange color would be more appropriate.
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Re: Feedback Imperial Stockpile (Rev 4,5). Unlimited input R

#27 Post by Oberlus » Tue Feb 20, 2018 1:14 am

Dilvish wrote:
Oberlus wrote:Please, make the red warning icon appear when IS input > IS max. output.
That sounds to me like a fine trigger point for the icon to appear, although for its significance I think a yellow or orange color would be more appropriate.
Red if IS input > 10x max output, orange if in between 10x and 3x, yellow in between 3x and 1x?
I'm too used to the red icon, I kinda need it with species like Egassem (high industry, low stockpiling).

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Re: Feedback Imperial Stockpile (Rev 4,5). Unlimited input R

#28 Post by Dilvish » Tue Feb 20, 2018 1:33 am

Oberlus wrote:Red if IS input > 10x max output, orange if in between 10x and 3x, yellow in between 3x and 1x?
I'm too used to the red icon, I kinda need it with species like Egassem (high industry, low stockpiling).
Sounds fine to me. I also recall Yandonman encouraging us to keep the colorblind in mind, and not let color be the sole distinction between UI states. Easier said than done sometimes, but perhaps there could also be a slight progression in size for the icon, or some other little details sort of like "!, "(!)", "((!))" but of course with the parenthesis shapes with much smaller relative size than I can show here (like 1/4th the size of the icon, to be sort of like emanating sound waves). Such detail changes though are I expect a bit trickier to implement than a simple color change, but we should probably keep something like that at least in mind as a goal.
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Re: Feedback Imperial Stockpile (Rev 4,5). Unlimited input R

#29 Post by Ophiuchus » Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:21 am

We are once again back at the traffic light discussion it seems: Imperial Stockpile -Indicate how much PP is wasted (%-based)


Just one twist to solve this. If we'd implement PP-into-stockpile-project in the build queue we could sidestep the issue and another problem.
I currently have a non-stockpiling game but would like to keep 10 PP or so in the stockpile just in case. Like @Oberlus i get into juggling problems there. The current workarounds are either disable stockpiling use for basically all new projects (this sucks!) or putting X extra PP into the stockpile and refill the stockpile every X turns (this is like doable). And as oberlus said this juggling is error-prone.

If we had the PP-into-stockpile-project in the build queue, we could always give the standard red warning if PP are added by excess.

In my current case i would add a PP-into-stockpile-project in my main supply group and set it up to 10PP for unlimited turns. In normal production that would mean that every turn 10PP are taken from the stockpile for production and readded.

If i had excess (besides the 10PP added to the stockpile) somewhere it would be unexpected and i'd get the warning.
This has some warts too, because the PP-into-stockpile-project probably couldnt be empire-wide and it probably is not nicely compatible with input limits (but we could simply remove the rule).
Dilvish wrote:
Oberlus wrote:Red if IS input > 10x max output, orange if in between 10x and 3x, yellow in between 3x and 1x?
I'm too used to the red icon, I kinda need it with species like Egassem (high industry, low stockpiling).
Sounds fine to me. I also recall Yandonman encouraging us to keep the colorblind in mind, and not let color be the sole distinction between UI states. Easier said than done sometimes, but perhaps there could also be a slight progression in size for the icon, or some other little details sort of like "!, "(!)", "((!))" but of course with the parenthesis shapes with much smaller relative size than I can show here (like 1/4th the size of the icon, to be sort of like emanating sound waves). Such detail changes though are I expect a bit trickier to implement than a simple color change, but we should probably keep something like that at least in mind as a goal.
I think the ranges are good. Maybe no indication for 1x-3x (because not a problem/easily solved). Notice level like the research one for 3x-10x and the high warning level for >10x could also pulse/blink (if somebody knows how to implement this). That would solve the screen space issues (all indicators are the same size) and the colorblind issues (no indicator, round indicator, blink indicator).
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Oberlus
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Re: Feedback Imperial Stockpile (Rev 4,5). Unlimited input R

#30 Post by Oberlus » Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:03 am

Ophiuchus wrote:If we had the PP-into-stockpile-project in the build queue, we could always give the standard red warning if PP are added by excess.
Right now I really like this option. Regarding micromanagement, versatility and usability by FO 0.4.7- users I think this is the best option so far.
Even if "added by excess" here would mean "wasted" (so that all PPs not sunk into a project are actually wasted). But I prefer your initial idea, that looks like there is an invisible, lowest-priority IS-stockpiling project (ISP) always in the queue that triggers the warning sign when it is receiving PPs.
Ophiuchus wrote:This has some warts too, because the PP-into-stockpile-project probably couldnt be empire-wide and it probably is not nicely compatible with input limits (but we could simply remove the rule).
Hmmm...
Actually, I like this more. Setting stockpiling projects for every non-producing supply-groups looks like a very easy and negligible (micro-)task for non-stockpiling species that want to make some use of the IS. Stockpiling species that actually want to stockpile in many places can just ignore all this and let the ISP do the job (and the warning sing will often not show off because the IS input is not greater (enough) than output. Non-stockpiling species that just want to ignore IS can keep playing as always, watching for the IS sign when it appears (even if it only appears for 3x or bigger input to max. output ratio).

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