Allied supply

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Magnate
Space Squid
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Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2014 3:44 pm

Allied supply

#1 Post by Magnate » Sun Mar 18, 2018 11:01 am

Hi all,

My friend and I have taken to teaming up against dozens of AIs. When we upgrade our starting peace to a full alliance, we get to see each other's planets and explorations. We can also use each other's supply to refuel (I think).

But we can't share systems without one of us getting cut off from our own industry supply. Is this intentional? Surely in a full alliance each player's supply lines should count as fully shared, so that industry passes across them seamlessly.

As an aside, I think in huge galaxies it becomes unrealistic for industry to be fully shared across the entire supply network. I think it would be interesting to have a maximum industry radius (obviously increasable with research) so that you have to have regional industrial hubs to use it (I'm thinking mainly of shipbuilding because that's what concentrates production). At least until stargates are built, at which point I guess industry traffic can be assumed to be using stargates.

Anyway, if someone could explain the reasoning for allies not sharing industry supply (if it's not a bug), that would be fun.

Still the best 4X game out there. Thanks for all your efforts. (Playing 0.4.7.1 btw)

CC

Ophiuchus
Vacuum Dragon
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Re: Allied supply

#2 Post by Ophiuchus » Sun Mar 18, 2018 3:22 pm

Magnate wrote:We can also use each other's supply to refuel (I think).
And use certain bonuses and buildings from the allied supply networks.
But we can't share systems without one of us getting cut off from our own industry supply. Is this intentional? Surely in a full alliance each player's supply lines should count as fully shared, so that industry passes across them seamlessly.
We dont have that feature, it certainly makes sense to me.
What you can use instead now is the imperial stockpile in the current test builds and upcoming 0.4.8 release.
Anyway, if someone could explain the reasoning for allies not sharing industry supply (if it's not a bug), that would be fun.
Its certainly no bug. Its a "missing feature" or an hole in our "game design". There are not many people playing multiplayer and i bet even if they ally they dont necessarily trust them for intermixed empires. So its no surprise if this part of the game is underdeveloped.
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

Magnate
Space Squid
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Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2014 3:44 pm

Re: Allied supply

#3 Post by Magnate » Sun Mar 18, 2018 6:32 pm

Ophiuchus wrote:
Magnate wrote:We can also use each other's supply to refuel (I think).
And use certain bonuses and buildings from the allied supply networks.
But we can't share systems without one of us getting cut off from our own industry supply. Is this intentional? Surely in a full alliance each player's supply lines should count as fully shared, so that industry passes across them seamlessly.
We dont have that feature, it certainly makes sense to me.
What you can use instead now is the imperial stockpile in the current test builds and upcoming 0.4.8 release.
Anyway, if someone could explain the reasoning for allies not sharing industry supply (if it's not a bug), that would be fun.
Its certainly no bug. Its a "missing feature" or an hole in our "game design". There are not many people playing multiplayer and i bet even if they ally they dont necessarily trust them for intermixed empires. So its no surprise if this part of the game is underdeveloped.
Fair point - thanks for the reply. Easier to agree a whole-system border as with a NAP.

I'll check out the dev versions of 0.4.8 and the "imperial stockpile".

Cheers.

cantfind
Space Krill
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Re: Allied supply

#4 Post by cantfind » Sun May 27, 2018 6:26 pm

I think that even during mere peace, existing supply routes should not be exclusive to one empire - if you're at peace, why would you prevent your ally from commerce activity? It's not a very friendly thing to do.

I think that for alliance it makes sense to combine supply routes (i.e. one can use another's supply lines), and for peace it make sense to have overlapping supply lines, but not being able to take advantage of the other's supply lines.

I just noticed this issue as well, playing with a peace pact with an AI, he just cut my empire in two, and ruined my empire.

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Oberlus
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Re: Allied supply

#5 Post by Oberlus » Mon May 28, 2018 10:27 am

Peace is different than alliance.

War means: I'm attacking you! Fear me! (Maybe not right now, but wait, you son of a beach).
Peace means: I'm not attacking you right now ¬¬, but stay away of me and my systems or we'll have problems (like supply disruption).
Alliance means: You and me are one now, bro! I'll share my supply at no cost for you, you'll do the same.

Alliance is not properly implemented now, but will include allied supply sharing.

cantfind
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Re: Allied supply

#6 Post by cantfind » Mon May 28, 2018 11:22 am

Thanks for the elaboration.

Sounds like there's one category missing, what you call peace is better described as cease-fire or cold-war or just non-friendly.

To my mind, there's a difference between civilizations at peace and allied civilizations in that at peace you cooperate commercially, but not militarily, i.e. you exhibit a live and let live philosophy (as opposed to how peace is implemented now) - and when allied, you're should share the resources of your empires, help each other militarily, and win together.

Does that make sense?

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Oberlus
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Re: Allied supply

#7 Post by Oberlus » Mon May 28, 2018 11:26 am

Makes a lot of sense.

I think that is the way it should be after Influence is implemented.

Commercial sharing of supply lines between empires at (real) peace could require influence upkeep from the participants, or be offered in exchange of influence (one empire sells it's supply reach to another).

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Vezzra
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Re: Allied supply

#8 Post by Vezzra » Mon May 28, 2018 3:15 pm

cantfind wrote:Sounds like there's one category missing, what you call peace is better described as cease-fire or cold-war or just non-friendly.
Diplomacy/diplomatic relations are currently implemented extremely rudimentary at best. That whole topic hasn't really been touched yet.

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Geoff the Medio
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Re: Allied supply

#9 Post by Geoff the Medio » Mon May 28, 2018 6:47 pm

Is this actually still an issue in the latest master or v0.4.8 pre-releases? In my test just now, allies can connect through another empire's supply network, even if they both have planets in the same system...
Attachments
Allies_Same_System_Merged_Supply.png
Allies with planes in same system. Blue empire is able to access the homeworld's PP output through Green's supply network.
Allies_Same_System_Merged_Supply.png (616.21 KiB) Viewed 400 times

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Vezzra
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Re: Allied supply

#10 Post by Vezzra » Tue May 29, 2018 8:10 am

Geoff the Medio wrote:Is this actually still an issue in the latest master or v0.4.8 pre-releases? In my test just now, allies can connect through another empire's supply network, even if they both have planets in the same system...
Yes, but what cantfind has been asking about, was that the current options (war, peace, alliance) are insufficient, particularly the lack of more options between "peace" and "alliance". You basically only have two "non-war" options: one is essentially a leave me alone and I leave you alone sort of thing, the other one a full blown military alliance.

cantfind suggested that there should be something in between, that allows e.g. for sharing supply and no mutual supply pushing/interfering (so basically, being able to coexist peacefully without having to go all the way to a military alliance). Which is currently not possible.

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Geoff the Medio
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Re: Allied supply

#11 Post by Geoff the Medio » Tue May 29, 2018 8:14 am

Vezzra wrote:Yes, but what cantfind has been asking about, was that the current options (war, peace, alliance) are insufficient...
The thread was started by Magnate, who referred to the supply sharing mechanics...
Magnate wrote:My friend and I have taken to teaming up against dozens of AIs. When we upgrade our starting peace to a full alliance, we get to see each other's planets and explorations. We can also use each other's supply to refuel (I think).

But we can't share systems without one of us getting cut off from our own industry supply. Is this intentional? Surely in a full alliance each player's supply lines should count as fully shared, so that industry passes across them seamlessly.

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Vezzra
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Re: Allied supply

#12 Post by Vezzra » Tue May 29, 2018 8:27 am

Geoff the Medio wrote:The thread was started by Magnate, who referred to the supply sharing mechanics...
Ah, sorry, I thought you were referring to the recent posts of cantfind.

Magnate
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Re: Allied supply

#13 Post by Magnate » Sun Jun 24, 2018 6:17 pm

Hey I just wanted to say thanks for implementing this. I love this game.

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