problems with colonization in 0.4.8 (build 2018-06-14.3f22a7

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Curtis Cook
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problems with colonization in 0.4.8 (build 2018-06-14.3f22a7

#1 Post by Curtis Cook » Sat Jun 23, 2018 10:20 am

I know that asking 'why' things are done in a certain way is a fool's game, but I'll try, anyway.

When a system has multiple colonizable planets, and one of those planets has been claimed by another empire, why can't I colonize the uninhabited one? I've tried this twice, and apparently having an outpost on any planet in a system puts all planets off-limits. I'm not understanding the sense of this.

On a related note, another thing that's happened twice that I don't understand is sending a ship to a system and getting a scan of that system, then when a colony ship shows up I'm informed that my sensors can't penetrate its cloaking and I can't colonize. The last time the cloaking had a strength of 26,000+, which made me wonder why I thought there was a planet there at all.

*sigh* A little help, please?

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Oberlus
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Re: problems with colonization in 0.4.8 (build 2018-06-14.3f

#2 Post by Oberlus » Sat Jun 23, 2018 11:36 am

Please, attach logs, save game and/or screenshots to be able to verify the reported bug.
When a system has multiple colonizable planets, and one of those planets has been claimed by another empire, why can't I colonize the uninhabited one?
You should be able to colonise unless there are non-allied armed ships in the system. When this happens, if your coloniser/outpost has stealth enough to remain undetected the colonisitation attempt will fail (although your ship will remain unharmed), and otherwise it will be attacked (and colonisation will fail too). If there is no armed enemy ships in the system, the outposting/colonisation will work just fine.

That's how it is working for me with 0.4.8 as well as with previous versions.
sending a ship to a system and getting a scan of that system, then when a colony ship shows up I'm informed that my sensors can't penetrate its cloaking and I can't colonize
What you describe here seems the expected behaviour if the planet you previously scanned has since then been colonised by another empire that has some planetary stealth. The huge stealth values means you don't know how stealthy they are, just that they are hidden to your sensors. If you hover the mouse over that planet, it should tell you when was successfully scanned for last time.

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EricF
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Re: problems with colonization in 0.4.8 (build 2018-06-14.3f

#3 Post by EricF » Sat Jun 23, 2018 1:49 pm

Yea, as Oberlus said, a screenshot would be helpful.
Your first issue I don't know. Other planets in a system should be colonisable even if there is an enemy colony/outpost there.

Your second issue, besides what Oberlus said, a couple things could have happened.
Since you last scanned it a Space Cloud or an Ion Storm might have moved over the system adding Stealth to the system.
Screenshot would help here.

Curtis Cook
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Re: problems with colonization in 0.4.8 (build 2018-06-14.3f

#4 Post by Curtis Cook » Sat Jun 23, 2018 8:31 pm

[quote="Oberlus"]Please, attach logs, save game and/or screenshots to be able to verify the reported bug.[/quote]

I didn't know this game had logs, and I don't know where to find them. I will try to include a saved game the next time one of these happens. They are not frequent occurences — three times in maybe six hundred turns over multriple games — but they happened more often in the last game I played, to the point where it became annoying.

[quote]You should be able to colonise unless there are non-allied armed ships in the system. When this happens, if your coloniser/outpost has stealth enough to remain undetected the colonisitation attempt will fail (although your ship will remain unharmed), and otherwise it will be attacked (and colonisation will fail too).[/quote]

I'm not sure the latter part of that is working, though the first part explains a lot. My colony and troop ships are never attacked, and when I send battle fleets to locations where my sensors tell me there are enemy troop, outpost or colony ships I never attack them.

I realize the game isn't set up to allow player-run ship-to-ship attacks, but they really should implement a yes/no system for whether or not you want to attack detected enemy fleets.

[quote]What you describe here seems the expected behaviour if the planet you previously scanned has since then been colonised by another empire that has some planetary stealth. The huge stealth values means you don't know how stealthy they are, just that they are hidden to your sensors./quote]

That's probably the answer to that issue, Thank you.

I should probably start a new thread for this, but since it's about stealth, this seems a good place to ask: Do monsters just see through stealth? I have never yet had a ship of any kind enter a monster-occupied system without being attacked, regardless of the ship's stealth rating.

Curtis Cook
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Re: problems with colonization in 0.4.8 (build 2018-06-14.3f

#5 Post by Curtis Cook » Sat Jun 23, 2018 8:33 pm

[quote="EricF"]A couple things could have happened. Since you last scanned it a Space Cloud or an Ion Storm might have moved over the system adding Stealth to the system.[/quote]

Those were not the issue, but thank you for thinking to suggest them.

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EricF
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Re: problems with colonization in 0.4.8 (build 2018-06-14.3f

#6 Post by EricF » Sat Jun 23, 2018 8:59 pm

Curtis Cook wrote:Do monsters just see through stealth? I have never yet had a ship of any kind enter a monster-occupied system without being attacked, regardless of the ship's stealth rating.
Monsters have a Detection Strength equal to their Detection Range. (Though it's not documented anywhere)
So if you have a stealth value higher than their Detection Range they can't see you.

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EricF
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Re: problems with colonization in 0.4.8 (build 2018-06-14.3f

#7 Post by EricF » Sat Jun 23, 2018 9:05 pm

On Win10 Logs are located at;
Users/$user/AppData/Roaming/FreeOrion

There are the AI logs and freeorion.log and freeoriond.log

Curtis Cook
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Re: problems with colonization in 0.4.8 (build 2018-06-14.3f

#8 Post by Curtis Cook » Sun Jun 24, 2018 5:31 am

I'm on an iMac.

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Re: problems with colonization in 0.4.8 (build 2018-06-14.3f

#9 Post by Dilvish » Sun Jun 24, 2018 5:38 am

Curtis Cook wrote:I'm on an iMac.
This page explains where to find the logs for all platforms.
If I provided any code, scripts or other content here, it's released under GPL 2.0 and CC-BY-SA 3.0

Curtis Cook
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Re: problems with colonization in 0.4.8 (build 2018-06-14.3f

#10 Post by Curtis Cook » Sun Jun 24, 2018 5:51 am

All right. Well, here are the two logs that don't say 'AI'. I'm not seeing what use they'll be, but here they are. (edit) And… I hope that worked, because I'm not seeing anything.
Attachments
freeoriond.log
(91.54 KiB) Downloaded 9 times
freeorion.log
(352.56 KiB) Downloaded 9 times

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Vezzra
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Re: problems with colonization in 0.4.8 (build 2018-06-14.3f

#11 Post by Vezzra » Sun Jun 24, 2018 12:24 pm

Curtis Cook wrote:another thing that's happened twice that I don't understand is sending a ship to a system and getting a scan of that system, then when a colony ship shows up I'm informed that my sensors can't penetrate its cloaking and I can't colonize.
In addition to what the others already mentioned, please be aware that there are three different "levels" of visibility, not just can/cannot detect. A scout of yours could have been able to detect the planets in a given system, but one of them might e.g. have a stealthy native population on it. That would give you (I think) partial, but not full visibility of that planet. Enough to "see" it and know it's there, but not enough to colonize it. For colonization you need full visibility.

You can tell that by the planet picture in the sidepanel. If the planet pic has scanlines overlayed, then your visibility of that planet is reduced, and you can't colonize it.
The last time the cloaking had a strength of 26,000+, which made me wonder why I thought there was a planet there at all.
An absurd high stealth value like this is basically the way the game tells you that your detection strength isn't able to penetrate the stealth of the planets surface, and therefore can't tell you the true stealth strength. Which already tells you that you do not have full visibility of that planet, and colonization is going to fail.

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Re: problems with colonization in 0.4.8 (build 2018-06-14.3f

#12 Post by Vezzra » Sun Jun 24, 2018 12:33 pm

Curtis Cook wrote:My colony and troop ships are never attacked, and when I send battle fleets to locations where my sensors tell me there are enemy troop, outpost or colony ships I never attack them.
That's strange. Unless you proposed peace to the AI and they accepted, whenever your ships end up with theirs in the same system, as soon as one of you has armed ships (that are not set to stay hidden/avoid combat) combat should be triggered.

The only other way to avoid combat is if the ships of one party are sufficiently stealthy to avoid detection by the other (and has their fleets set to hide/avoid combat). In that case the other can have as many armed ships set to agressive as they want, the stealthy party is able to dodge them.
I realize the game isn't set up to allow player-run ship-to-ship attacks, but they really should implement a yes/no system for whether or not you want to attack detected enemy fleets.
The current combat system is a placeholder/stop-gap solution. A more sophisticated combat engine that allows for a limited/semi tactical combat is planned, as are a bit more flexible options when it comes to triggering combat. That however isn't going to happen anytime soon.

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Re: problems with colonization in 0.4.8 (build 2018-06-14.3f

#13 Post by Curtis Cook » Sun Jun 24, 2018 6:43 pm

Vezzra wrote:In addition to what the others already mentioned, please be aware that there are three different "levels" of visibility, not just can/cannot detect. A scout of yours could have been able to detect the planets in a given system, but one of them might e.g. have a stealthy native population on it. That would give you (I think) partial, but not full visibility of that planet. Enough to "see" it and know it's there, but not enough to colonize it. For colonization you need full visibility.

You can tell that by the planet picture in the sidepanel. If the planet pic has scanlines overlayed, then your visibility of that planet is reduced, and you can't colonize it.
This is useful to know.
Vezzra wrote:An absurd high stealth value like this is basically the way the game tells you that your detection strength isn't able to penetrate the stealth of the planets surface, and therefore can't tell you the true stealth strength. Which already tells you that you do not have full visibility of that planet, and colonization is going to fail.
Yes, but the last time I had visited the planet there was no mention of stealth.

Thank you for your other response post, just above this.

I'm going away from keyboard for a couple of days.

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