Experimentors monsters challenging after nerf to resources?

Describe your experience with the latest version of FreeOrion to help us improve it.

Moderators: Oberlus, Oberlus

Forum rules
Always mention the exact version of FreeOrion you are testing.

When reporting an issue regarding the AI, if possible provide the relevant AI log file and a save game file that demonstrates the issue.
Message
Author
User avatar
Oberlus
Cosmic Dragon
Posts: 2783
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:25 pm

Experimentors monsters challenging after nerf to resources?

#1 Post by Oberlus » Sat Jun 20, 2020 7:28 pm

Playing FreeOrion_2020-06-16.e352120

In a challenging game against a lucky Eaxaw AI (and other 3 AIs not so lucky nor challenging), around turn 200 Experimentor's outpost appeared (long time no see) and the Black Krakkens and the such that it is pumping out are just overwhelming. It's been some 25 turns since it happened and I've already lost 5 colonies (some 15% of my total population) and will probably lose this game (will see).

Anyone else experiencing this?


I think we do have to change default tech/buiding/hull/parts cost multipliers to account for the slow down in development. Because of the above problem and to make game faster (as it was before the resource nerf).

This topic is not to discuss that part about default cost multipliers, just to gather feedback on the Experimentors issue.

Ornamental
Space Krill
Posts: 8
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2020 1:06 pm

Re: Experimentors monsters challenging after nerf to resources?

#2 Post by Ornamental » Fri Jul 10, 2020 2:11 pm

Not sure if this answers your topic. I came here hoping to find a hint on how to defeat the experimentor outpost, as it's the first time I get to deal with them. I'll just share my thoughts:

I started a game with no AI players just with the goal of conquering absolutely every planet. I thought it would be easy, that I could muck around with research and explore how different things worked without worrying much about enemies. After turn 208 in this specific case, they've been developing 3 Black krakens every 6 turns or so. I find it's a little bit overpowered, even taking into account that I had no strategy against them. I don't think even if I had devoted all research to weapon development I'd be able to defeat these guys. Maybe I'm overlooking some tech/research component that makes a huge difference?
The only strategy I can think of would be: Identify where the outpost is (not always easy depending on the galaxy shape), develop weapons as much as possible (nova bomb would be essential) and amass a fleet large enough to take down the krakens before the experimentors release the first or second batch. One would also need to be able to know to which system the experimentors will establish the starlane connection.... because it doesn't last long. Or use the starlane bore, too. Having all that sorted out before turn 208 seems like too much for me, but I'll give it a try.
If there is a setting to tone down the experimentor monsters only I'd love to know it. :lol:

User avatar
Oberlus
Cosmic Dragon
Posts: 2783
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:25 pm

Re: Experimentors monsters challenging after nerf to resources?

#3 Post by Oberlus » Fri Jul 10, 2020 5:04 pm

Ornamental wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 2:11 pm
If there is a setting to tone down the experimentor monsters only I'd love to know it. :lol:
Last version (master and v0.4.10 release candidate) have them nerfed a bit: they do not appear before turn 250 and they pump out monsters in waves of 2 instead of 3. In my current game I had two AIs that got quite powerful and delayed me a lot (by not letting me expand and taking down my fleets more than once), but when the experimentors popped out those two AIs as well as me had fleets of tens of Titan Hulls with Death Rays and Neutronium Armor and the Black Krakens weren't that much of a pain. So I think problem is solved now.

defaultuser
Small Juggernaut
Posts: 742
Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2015 6:15 pm

Re: Experimentors monsters challenging after nerf to resources?

#4 Post by defaultuser » Sat Jul 11, 2020 1:29 am

If you find that the area is overrun with spawn, usually because it started in an AI area, then you can research Gateway to the Void. Build some strategic gateways to let the monsters blunder into and get destroyed.

Unless it's been changed for 0.4.10, you don't have to wait for the Experimenters to open a starlane. Research Starlane Bore and open your own to the Experimenter system. Those only last one turn so you have to be ready to jump. Note that I had some problems with that at one point, see:

viewtopic.php?f=28&t=11522

Finally, a technique that can work on occasion is when you find the Experimenter system early, and it has another planet or asteroid belt. Build a colony ship for a compatible species and research Starlane Bore and Stargate. Punch a bore through to send the colony ship. Establish the colony, then have the colony start building a Stargate as soon as the tech is available. When it's ready, you can jump forces in and out as you please from a safe location.

In general it's better to find the system early and not have to deal with spawn at all.

Ornamental
Space Krill
Posts: 8
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2020 1:06 pm

Re: Experimentors monsters challenging after nerf to resources?

#5 Post by Ornamental » Sat Jul 11, 2020 9:43 am

Oberlus wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 5:04 pm

Last version (master and v0.4.10 release candidate) have them nerfed a bit: they do not appear before turn 250 and they pump out monsters in waves of 2 instead of 3.
That sounds much better, I think if a game is progressing well and one has somewhat of a strategy those extra 50 turns should be just right. I didn't know vesion 4.10 was out already, I might get it then :)
defaultuser wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 1:29 am
If you find that the area is overrun with spawn, usually because it started in an AI area, then you can research Gateway to the Void. Build some strategic gateways to let the monsters blunder into and get destroyed.

Unless it's been changed for 0.4.10, you don't have to wait for the Experimenters to open a starlane. Research Starlane Bore and open your own to the Experimenter system. Those only last one turn so you have to be ready to jump. Note that I had some problems with that at one point, see:

viewtopic.php?f=28&t=11522

Finally, a technique that can work on occasion is when you find the Experimenter system early, and it has another planet or asteroid belt. Build a colony ship for a compatible species and research Starlane Bore and Stargate. Punch a bore through to send the colony ship. Establish the colony, then have the colony start building a Stargate as soon as the tech is available. When it's ready, you can jump forces in and out as you please from a safe location.

In general it's better to find the system early and not have to deal with spawn at all.
I've thought about Gateway to the Void but never had a solid chance to use it. The Stargate idea is good too, I'll keep it in mind.
Thanks for the heads up about potential Bore issues, I've looked at your other post and that looks puzzling...

Cheers

drkosy
Space Floater
Posts: 29
Joined: Sat Jul 11, 2020 9:41 am

Re: Experimentors monsters challenging after nerf to resources?

#6 Post by drkosy » Sat Jul 11, 2020 10:56 am

To be honest, I just finished one game (v 0.49) but didn't run into Experimentors. At turn 200 the enemy fleets had decent strength as well as mine. So I thougt, maybe we just run over them. So I wonder, if there is some way to indentify their planet. Something special e.g. Ancient Ruins, a special race or something like that.

By the way: I didn't found Orion-Starsystem. Is there anything like that already implemented?

User avatar
Oberlus
Cosmic Dragon
Posts: 2783
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:25 pm

Re: Experimentors monsters challenging after nerf to resources?

#7 Post by Oberlus » Sat Jul 11, 2020 11:10 am

drkosy wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 10:56 am
To be honest, I just finished one game (v 0.49) but didn't run into Experimentors. At turn 200 the enemy fleets had decent strength as well as mine. So I thougt, maybe we just run over them. So I wonder, if there is some way to indentify their planet. Something special e.g. Ancient Ruins, a special race or something like that.
The Experimentors system has very high stealth and won't be visible until you get omni-scanner (last detection tech), IIRC.
There is no particular signal of its presence appart from the Experimentor's planet itself.
By the way: I didn't found Orion-Starsystem. Is there anything like that already implemented?
I think Orion is one of the possible system names that the universe generator can pick, but it's random.

drkosy
Space Floater
Posts: 29
Joined: Sat Jul 11, 2020 9:41 am

Re: Experimentors monsters challenging after nerf to resources?

#8 Post by drkosy » Sat Jul 11, 2020 12:50 pm

Thanks for the quick reply :)
There is no particular signal of its presence appart from the Experimentor's planet itself.
Did I got it right: If the planet is conquered, there is no spezific race nor any specials there.
I think Orion is one of the possible system names that the universe generator can pick, but it's random.
That sounds like there is no special at system Orion like an hard to beat guardian (8000 health, 2k firepower) and after his defeat you get a planet with some great bonuses :?:

User avatar
Oberlus
Cosmic Dragon
Posts: 2783
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:25 pm

Re: Experimentors monsters challenging after nerf to resources?

#9 Post by Oberlus » Sat Jul 11, 2020 3:22 pm

drkosy wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 12:50 pm
Did I got it right: If the planet is conquered, there is no spezific race nor any specials there.
Right. There are the Experimentors (a species), but they commit suicide when conquered.
That sounds like there is no special at system Orion like an hard to beat guardian (8000 health, 2k firepower) and after his defeat you get a planet with some great bonuses :?:
Right. Systems with great specials have a strong monster guard regardless of the name. Orion could be a normal system without any special.

drkosy
Space Floater
Posts: 29
Joined: Sat Jul 11, 2020 9:41 am

Re: Experimentors monsters challenging after nerf to resources?

#10 Post by drkosy » Sat Jul 11, 2020 3:26 pm

Thanks al lot :) Now I know what awaits me down in the dark :wink:

defaultuser
Small Juggernaut
Posts: 742
Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2015 6:15 pm

Re: Experimentors monsters challenging after nerf to resources?

#11 Post by defaultuser » Sat Jul 11, 2020 7:29 pm

The usual way to spot the system is finding one that is totally disconnected from others. In previous versions, the positioning of the Experimentors could cause some serious disconnect to the map. See an old thread of mine:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10112

I had one time where my home territory was disconnected from the rest of the galaxy that way.

They have fixed the problem now.

Ornamental
Space Krill
Posts: 8
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2020 1:06 pm

Re: Experimentors monsters challenging after nerf to resources?

#12 Post by Ornamental » Sun Jul 12, 2020 8:43 am

Oberlus wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 5:04 pm
Last version (master and v0.4.10 release candidate) have them nerfed a bit: they do not appear before turn 250 and they pump out monsters in waves of 2 instead of 3. In my current game I had two AIs that got quite powerful and delayed me a lot (by not letting me expand and taking down my fleets more than once), but when the experimentors popped out those two AIs as well as me had fleets of tens of Titan Hulls with Death Rays and Neutronium Armor and the Black Krakens weren't that much of a pain. So I think problem is solved now.
Okay I'm back after running the game past turn 250 (v 4.10). A few things:

-The sitrep says it's 3 Black Krakens, although it's actually 2 being produced. This is a minor bug that can be easily fixed I suppose.

- Yes it's two black krakens per batch, but it's not every 6 turns anymore. It's every 4 or less. Sometimes on consecutive turns. This sounds the same if not worse than before, in my opinion. Having the delay definitely helped, but it's still a one-shot case scenario, get them straight away or you are toast.

Edit: Question: Is the strength and frequency of the experimentor krakens influenced by the game settings chosen? I mean Monster Frequency and Max AI Aggression. I suppose I can also remove them completely unticking 'Enable experimentors' under the Content tab also? Though it's a cool challenge, it would be nice if it could be tweaked instead of totally removed.

User avatar
Oberlus
Cosmic Dragon
Posts: 2783
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:25 pm

Re: Experimentors monsters challenging after nerf to resources?

#13 Post by Oberlus » Sun Jul 12, 2020 9:20 am

Ornamental wrote:
Sun Jul 12, 2020 8:43 am
-The sitrep says it's 3 Black Krakens, although it's actually 2 being produced. This is a minor bug that can be easily fixed I suppose.
Oops, good catch, that's my fault. Have to fix it.

Ornamental wrote:
Sun Jul 12, 2020 8:43 am
- Yes it's two black krakens per batch, but it's not every 6 turns anymore. It's every 4 or less. Sometimes on consecutive turns. This sounds the same if not worse than before, in my opinion. Having the delay definitely helped, but it's still a one-shot case scenario, get them straight away or you are toast.

Edit: Question: Is the strength and frequency of the experimentor krakens influenced by the game settings chosen? I mean Monster Frequency and Max AI Aggression. I suppose I can also remove them completely unticking 'Enable experimentors' under the Content tab also? Though it's a cool challenge, it would be nice if it could be tweaked instead of totally removed.
The strength of Experimentors monsters is fixed (they are "ship designs"), the AI aggressiveness influences when they start appearing (250 for Maniacal, +50 for each less level, not before turn 1000 for Beginner). The frequency is random:

https://github.com/freeorion/freeorion/ ... T.focs.txt

For example:

Code: Select all

            activation = And [
                Turn low = ([[EXPERIMENTOR_SPAWN_START_TURN]])  high = ( [[EXPERIMENTOR_SPAWN_START_TURN]] + 35)
                Random probability = (0.2 * [[EXPERIMENTOR_MONSTER_FREQ_FACTOR]] )
            ]

Code: Select all

EXPERIMENTOR_MONSTER_FREQ_FACTOR
'''((1 + GalaxyMaxAIAggression) / 5.0)'''
For Maniacal, there is 24% chance every turn during the first 35 turns of activation for Krakens to spawn.

Ornamental
Space Krill
Posts: 8
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2020 1:06 pm

Re: Experimentors monsters challenging after nerf to resources?

#14 Post by Ornamental » Sun Jul 12, 2020 9:54 am

OOOOOH right I see! So simple then, I just need to try a lower setting to increase delay and decreased spawning chance. Thanks! :D

Dretnoth
Space Krill
Posts: 1
Joined: Sun Jul 12, 2020 9:06 am

Re: Experimentors monsters challenging after nerf to resources?

#15 Post by Dretnoth » Sun Jul 12, 2020 12:10 pm

Sorry but I have a list of complains and some suggestion. (Probably not welcomed idea, but i spend to much time thinking about it. So not my fold.)
[v0.4.10 403e]

I dint know ( what that is and ) what i unleashed before it was too late. (premature enter via new star-line and scout to see what it is.
A getaway to hell.
)

The crakens keep spamming and my fleet was enough to clear it within 3 turns. The rate is insane. Or what it triggers? Eventually the infection spread to half of the (for me know) galaxy, sanitizing planets from population. And they speed is ridiculous.

The monster bombard even planets that dint have buildings (they have been teraformed) and cleared the GAIA bonus.
The monster keep bombard planets even if i max out planet cloaking.

When i went whit my army to remove the experiment (ignoring the existing crackers whit plan to deal them latter) i realize it dint solve the nest.
After maxing the scanner range i see that there is not a bonus icon that will explain what going on. (so it must be scribbled event, and i screw it somehow) (I just only now notice that experiment outpost)

When i finally have enough force to deal the pest a just two Psycho (Psionic) snowflake delete my armies of sentient ships not being on the same system. (Oh way they deserted? And they keep dying?) I will be OK if it was one ship per flake per turn, but this was not cool. I will be Ok if it happens one per combat turn, but not this. Not even Robotic hull has been immune.

And when i build a survives fleet whit machine crews on, i finally give up the game because cosmic dragons whit 50K HP.


So here I am, and i have suggestion.
If this a some way how to replace/ implement Antarians, then how about a different spawn conditions:
1. move the experiment outpost closer to center of the galaxy.
2. a spawn script will contain a list of empires to pay a visit.
3. it will generate one way star-line from outpost to randomly chosen system whit selected empire population. The star-line become unacesable right from first enter. (no stacking the waves if travel are 20 turn long, no deleting your star line) (or star-line that are accessible on first turn, then closed to enter for rest of it life. Then die when number of traveling ship reach 0.)
4. a list of ship/experiments that was send to selected empire, and it will not generate a next wave, until previews waves have more that 50% of crafts or 25% of hp, presented in that empire controlled systems. The script will chose other randomly or by some statistic compare.
5. Scaling the strength of experiments based on how good/bad the target dealt it whit. (like start whit large snowflake, ending whit a loot of shits) "+1 experiment size" if the experiments have been dealt whiten 10 turns after arrive. (possibility to use age variable that dint raise inside star-lines) "-1" or skip the procedure, if the experiments been not dealt when new procedure are on schedule.
6. Or just generate a immortal space egg. Send it to random system. The eeg are seen but only high scanner can detect what and when it hatch. So the empire can prepare the fleet. It can be send with planet star-line core to open space, (slow speed, stopped, reset hatching, or die if the distance from nearest system are to long.), it can be send to another quadrant of galaxy to another system. (whit a gift card as a present)
7. instead of killing population, kidnapping population and initiative return galaxy warp, then (if sauced) somehow prefer other empire to visit.

Monster tweaking (because these are "Experiments")
Instead of insane stealth i propose a generating signal that can be detectable , but for more Intel it need that max out scanners. (or lees)
Instead of set attk and HP, and speed, a random variable on those. If one way star-line not possible then after first combat reduce the 200 speed to random (50-120).
Robotic hull ship: turning from crewed ship into a unnamed drone immune to Psionic and board.
Sentient ships and some others have natural 50% chance to resist psionic.
Ships whit cloaking device/component have additional dice rol to resist psionic or evade combat/ initiative harassment based on strength of the device.
Fixing bombard condition, like for crakens that dint bombard planets that dont have buildings. Or are cloaked or based on strength of the cloaking certain percentage of population are protected from bombard because they are hidden. shields reducing the bombard strength.
Experiments dint initiative a combat whit monster type of craft, if yes then experiments shall be look like another empire and strike all monster without discrimination. Or they shall assault any other type of craft that not the same type even if it come from same outpost. But they are not hitched to each other so they can leave.

Star-base as a system defensive pseudo monster as a replace to colony base hull: Well it cannot have a normal design, because whit no refit it obsolete fast. Instead it self scale as tech progresses. And of course the build scale will increase as new tech comes, making old bases still good investment. (It can have 4 best blasters, 2 flack, 2 fighters, 10 armor, shield and sensor. +1 suply line range. No cloak, +1 fleet command, +1 another fleet command if on home-world. Not initiative attack on monster, but fighter can harass even cloaked ones.)

Post Reply