Testing 4.10

Describe your experience with the latest version of FreeOrion to help us improve it.

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jadwin
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Testing 4.10

#1 Post by jadwin »

There is a bug. Conquered minor alien races have no research and no production. Before invasion they have production or research. After invasion the production and research is set to 0, but there is no change.

Example:

research focus of a Volp-uglush colony

this round : 0
next round : 0
change : 0
Aim : 8,44

The bonuses of tech in research and production are very low.

First impressions:

- Green techs are now more important
- Race bonuses are more important
- better ships is better than techs improving production or research
- Gas Giant and asteroid bonuses count more
- the game is slower, you need more turns to win

jadwin
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Re: Testing 4.10

#2 Post by jadwin »

Wow. Exobots changed a lot. Very bad in industrie and research but can colonise most worlds. You changed that much, that there is nearly a new game.

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Oberlus
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Re: Testing 4.10

#3 Post by Oberlus »

jadwin wrote: Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:18 am There is a bug. Conquered minor alien races have no research and no production.
Check out if the planet has an indicator in the top-left corner saying something about they are unhappy.
One of the changes has been to delay production/research meter growth until happiness is 5, and invasion resets happiness to zero (and it goes up by +1 per turn, so five turns until meters start growing).
If happiness is not growing above zero or meters are not growing in spite of happiness 5 or greater, then you found a bug.
jadwin wrote: Thu Jul 16, 2020 6:38 am Exobots changed a lot.
They are now poor man's choice. It allows ealier-game growth to players with bad luck at starting position, with few/poor colonization choices at start, specially interesting in multi-player games where you initial luck with good/adequate planets and natives pretty much decides (decided) the winner.
jadwin wrote: Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:18 am - Green techs are now more important
- Race bonuses are more important
- better ships is better than techs improving production or research
- Gas Giant and asteroid bonuses count more
- the game is slower, you need more turns to win
In v0.4.9 you were practically forced to get ASAP the flat bonuses (plus any pop-based bonuses in the way) as well as the minimum green techs to unlock more planets for your empire, regardless of actual size of the planets. Rushing those techs and neglecting new hulls/parts until absolutely necessary was good strategy. The only thing to ponder was research and production (colonization) balance.
The fact that there was a huge nerf of production and research output but no adjustment of the tech and hulls/parts costs means that getting to (focusing on) certain techs and neglecting others might be counterproductive. Now I find myself delaying Sentient Automation or Quantum Computing quite a bit while I get Orbital Construction, Deuterium Tanks or Active Radar because I can't wait that much. I kinda like that, I feel there are more research strategy choices.
However, I'm not sure we hit the right spot regarding balance between research/production boost techs and utility techs. For example, I feel like combat ship part are now too important, enough as to be a bad idea to focus on mid-late game boost techs (like Enclave of the Void or Pure Energy Metabolism) until late game with huge populations.
We need more insight on that.

Also, I don't like that game is slower (takes more turns). It might not be a problem in single-player, but it is not an improvement, and it's certainly a problem in multi-player games since games take longer (in IRL days).
The workaround is setting lower research and production cost factors at game creation (in the Balance tab at Galaxy Settings window). By default techs costs are multiplied by 2.0, and all PP costs (buildings, hulls, parts) by 1.0. Change those to 1.4 and 0.7 for a faster game pace. Or play with the different factors to change game balance in other ways, such as making parts cheaper in comparison to hulls.
Anyways, the costs of techs need a full revision, to make less expensive the mid-late game techs in comparison to the early-game ones.

jadwin
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Re: Testing 4.10

#4 Post by jadwin »

Thank you for you quick response. You are rigth. It's not a bug, it's the low moral. Thats a good idea.

In 4.9 the flat bonuses were the key. Even races with a huge production industry needed the flat production bonuses. There seems not to be one best research track. It's a more tactical decision in a special situation.

I think telepathic races will be more attractive. You get the same bonus as quantum computing, but cheaper.

Exobots are weak, but with them you are able to colonize most worlds. I would think you would have earlyer conflicts with other empires, but the KI seem to be slower.

Xenophobic races could use exobots for first colonisation and destroy them in concentration camps for pp and second colonization, when more races or green techs are available. I will try that.

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drkosy
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Re: Testing 4.10

#5 Post by drkosy »

- the game is slower, you need more turns to win
As pure singleplayer I like the new pace of the game. Only problem are the experimentors...
At turn 250 when they should appear I never had the resources to beat them. I think they should appear at turn 300 or something like that (even in hardest AI setting).
My other impressions are:
- gas giant generators are only for the early to mid-game. Artificial planets are more worthy if you spend the PP for terraforming or you are lucky catching (or planying) sly.
- planetary defense is now much better with the new planetary shield mark 5 but I think the offensive part could still be more powerful (especially in endgame)
- I miss some documentation about arc-disruptor. Somewhere I red they should be effective against fighters, ships but don't know what that means. As far as I know every weapon can attack all of those. (Not ereasing pop by bombarding but destroy planetary defense) or is there a modificator to suppress antimatter-cannon to attack fighters?
I think telepathic races will be more attractive. You get the same bonus as quantum computing, but cheaper.
I didn't read the documentation on detail but really missed that part. Could someone explain that in more detail or link to the wiki-page?

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Oberlus
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Re: Testing 4.10

#6 Post by Oberlus »

drkosy wrote: Mon Aug 03, 2020 5:46 pm Only problem are the experimentors...
At turn 250 when they should appear I never had the resources to beat them. I think they should appear at turn 300 or something like that (even in hardest AI setting).
I've had 4 games in a row beating Experimentors, with them appearing either close to my HW or far away (so AIs delay me to get to them). No problem at all in any of the four games, only in one game I lost one planet to the monsters weapons. I once battled Cosmic Dragons, easy peasy with a bunch of end game Titanic ships.
Only in the first game before those (so the fifth backwards) I had problems because the Outpost was at the other side of the galaxy and it was the first time I had to fight Psionic Snowflakes but my entire fleet were Mu Ursh and Hhoh so I lost to my own ships.
Since then, I use non-organic species from mid to late game (good/great organic pilots can stay to conquer AIs away from the Outpost). Robotic Interface Shield pretty effective against them.
I bet you only need to optimize the way you colonize, invade, research and produce. You need to have all late game combat techs and have a production of 1k+ PP per turn by turn 250.
Alternatively, play against Aggressive AI (instead of Maniacal) so that Experimentors do not appear before turn 300.
My other impressions are:
- gas giant generators are only for the early to mid-game. Artificial planets are more worthy if you spend the PP for terraforming or you are lucky catching (or planying) sly.
- planetary defense is now much better with the new planetary shield mark 5 but I think the offensive part could still be more powerful (especially in endgame)
- I miss some documentation about arc-disruptor. Somewhere I red they should be effective against fighters, ships but don't know what that means. As far as I know every weapon can attack all of those. (Not ereasing pop by bombarding but destroy planetary defense) or is there a modificator to suppress antimatter-cannon to attack fighters?
Yes, GGGs are useful as long as you have GGs and planets on the same system (even with Sly), but end game, without Sly, you want all/most GGs turned into Huge Gaia planets for your best producing species.
Arc Disruptor attacks everything: ships, fighters, planets. Other weapons only target a subset of those (cannons: planets and ships; flaks: fighters; interceptors: fighters; bombers: ships; strikers: ships and fighters; heavy bombers: ships and planets). Shielded ships are a bad target for Arc Disruptors (negate most or all the damage). If enemy is shielded and has fighters, you prefer flaks or interceptors to counter enemy fighters and strike/bomber/heavy bomber to counter enemy shielded ships.
I think telepathic races will be more attractive. You get the same bonus as quantum computing, but cheaper.
I didn't read the documentation on detail but really missed that part. Could someone explain that in more detail or link to the wiki-page?
Telepahtic species allow an empire to get Psionics (tech) for a quarter of the RP, and that tech unlocks pretty nice research and production techs.

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drkosy
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Re: Testing 4.10

#7 Post by drkosy »

I've had 4 games in a row beating Experimentors
Hmm, I don't ask how you managed to play 5 games in that short time version 0.4.10 is ready :wink:
I found my problem: Monster count was high with slowed down colonising a lot. Maybe I should change that...
For me, I like the setting Maniacal because the AI is a bit more challanging. It's only the experimentors came pretty soon (at least for me). On the other hand that makes it attractive to me to optimize my gamestile :)
heavy bombers: ships and planets
Thanks to make that clear, I do ask myselve why they were introduced :)
Other weapons only target a subset of those
Because I like to fiddle around a bit :D I searched where to change that but did't found that in "scripting/ship_parts/ShortRange/SR_WEAPON_X.focs.txt" is that coded in python scrips? (That would be bad because I don't have a clue of python and can't fiddle around than :oops: )

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Oberlus
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Re: Testing 4.10

#8 Post by Oberlus »

drkosy wrote: Mon Aug 03, 2020 8:29 pm
I've had 4 games in a row beating Experimentors
Hmm, I don't ask how you managed to play 5 games in that short time version 0.4.10 is ready :wink:
Since RC1, maybe three weeks?
Because I like to fiddle around a bit :D I searched where to change that but did't found that in "scripting/ship_parts/ShortRange/SR_WEAPON_X.focs.txt" is that coded in python scrips? (That would be bad because I don't have a clue of python and can't fiddle around than :oops: )
Search for lines like that one in the weapons FOCS files:
https://github.com/freeorion/freeorion/ ... ocs.txt#L8

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drkosy
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Re: Testing 4.10

#9 Post by drkosy »

Search for lines like that one in the weapons FOCS files
Thanks again for your help :D I recognized that for arc-disruptor this line is missing, which makes sense because it can address all targets. :idea:

Now to another thing: I recognized that resonant moons are always computron moons as well. This not only at the description but in real. I just tried it out, built a colony on a planet with resonant moon switched to science focus and get 0.1 science per pop on all planets with science focus. It is called "unknown" but is exactly the bonus for comutron moons. (I play version 0.4.10 RC1) On the description that comes by hovering over the symbol it is written that it would bring 0.2 research per pop, with is wrong. I think that is a bug, not a feature :wink:

At last: I like to have some very late game techs to "dump" RP. Therfore I just worked out "hyper advanced lab 1" and "hyper advanced fab 1" corresponding to the hyper-techs in MOO2. Maybe something like that could find the way into the official game :?:

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Oberlus
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Re: Testing 4.10

#10 Post by Oberlus »

drkosy wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 10:35 pmI recognized that resonant moons are always computron moons as well. This not only at the description but in real. I just tried it out, built a colony on a planet with resonant moon switched to science focus and get 0.1 science per pop on all planets with science focus. It is called "unknown" but is exactly the bonus for comutron moons. (I play version 0.4.10 RC1)
What language do you play? In the English description for Resonant Moons there is no mention to research bonus. The FOCS file does not have any call to SetTargetResearch. Can you attach screenshots and a save file? Make sure there is no actual Computronium, only Resonant Moon. The "unknown" thingy is buggy anyways, this needs to be looked into.
On the description that comes by hovering over the symbol it is written that it would bring 0.2 research per pop, with is wrong.
The Computronium English description says 0.1 per pop, not 0.2. Which is wrong anyways (documentation bug), it is 0.05, and that seems too low for a Sentinel guarded special, it should be 0.1 per pop...
At last: I like to have some very late game techs to "dump" RP. Therfore I just worked out "hyper advanced lab 1" and "hyper advanced fab 1" corresponding to the hyper-techs in MOO2. Maybe something like that could find the way into the official game :?:
You have the tech to reach technological victory.

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drkosy
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Re: Testing 4.10

#11 Post by drkosy »

What language do you play?
I play german version, so description is in german. Added screenshot as you asked. In principal I could fix the problem by editing the stringtable but I think that should be supervised by the team :) By the way: I could provide some translation into german, if needed :D
The "unknown" thingy is buggy anyways, this needs to be looked into.
The "unkonwn" thing is more buggy than I thougt, because it's not related to the choosen focus on the planet. But it only appeared after colonizing the planet with the resonant moon. Savegames are to large to add, later on I will post a link here with them...
P.S: Just if you wonder - I like fiddling around and changed replicants to 125% pop - so some planets will be overcrouded if you load the game...
You have the tech to reach technological victory.
I see that this is very much my flavor. I love to work on universe, transform any planet to good condition, before I end the game. So I like something to spend RP in until I like to reach victory. If I already invented everything it goes automaticly to trancendency so I can't really choose when to win. On the other hand, hypertechs were always part of Orion-Games so I liked them to be in that game as well :)
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Moon-Bonus.png
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Resonant-Moon.png
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Oberlus
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Re: Testing 4.10

#12 Post by Oberlus »

Computronium Moon adds Target.Population * 0.25 * [[RESEARCH_PER_POP]] (+ Pop * 0.25 *0.2 = Pop * 0.05), with late priority so the species trait doesn't apply, which for that planet would add +0.06. But the unknown bonus gives +0.13 (so +0.1*pop). Computronium isn't the source of that bonus. I have no idea what is it.
Save file, please?

The Computronium Moon text in that Resonant Moon tooltip seems some kind of formating error in the de.txt stringtable.

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drkosy
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Re: Testing 4.10

#13 Post by drkosy »

Here the savegame with the resonantmoon colony finished (turn 277) and without colony (turn 271). I just looked out my colonies and realized that the "unknown" bonus was already there before the colony with the resonant moon was finished. Nevertheless I provide you with that two savegames. I hope you can figure out what's wrong with it.
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LienRag
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Re: Testing 4.10

#14 Post by LienRag »

drkosy wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 5:40 pm By the way: I could provide some translation into german, if needed :D
I'm not in charge of translations and know nothing of the German version, but help is always appreciated, yes.
So if you see missing lines in the .de textfiles, you're very welcome to propose your version.
If some lines seem to you badly translated, you can offer a better one too (providing better French translations has been on my to-do list for a long time, but is surprisingly difficult).

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drkosy
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Re: Testing 4.10

#15 Post by drkosy »

So if you see missing lines in the .de textfiles, you're very welcome to propose your version.
There are some lines missing translation so I will take a close look at them :)

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