Testing Government and Influence

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Oberlus
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Re: Testing Government and Influence

#286 Post by Oberlus »

wobbly wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 6:53 am Ok centralization/beauracracy/techocracy. First issue its 3 slots and I have 2 without spending another 80 + 200 IP (2nd and 3rd infrastructure policies). But ok we can unadopt centralization for techocracy. 2nd issue we can no longer build regional admins for beuracracy, because we unadopted centralization.
Something similar happened to me in the previous game: I found out I needed RegAdmins but didn't get Centralization first and it was then much more expensive to adopt and created a big red numbers on IP production (that's no longer the case, IP costs were changed). So in this game I prioritized those three infrastructure policies to have both plenty of slots and RegAdmins without Centralization (which I've had to take anyway now that I'm enclosed, again, in a small box).

So we solve these issues and start building regional admins but its very unclear the order. Do we want as many admins as possible before adopting beuracracy? As few as possible? Some optimal of x?
I think it's best to get Bureaucracy when you can start building centers and build each next center only after it's necessary for Bureaucracy. But it seems impossible to keep it up so eventually Bureacracy must be dropped and look for something else to increase stability. I guess the policy will need some changes, eventually, when we have more experience with it.

wobbly
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Re: Testing Government and Influence

#287 Post by wobbly »

Oberlus wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 9:05 am
wobbly wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 6:53 am
So we solve these issues and start building regional admins but its very unclear the order. Do we want as many admins as possible before adopting beuracracy? As few as possible? Some optimal of x?
I think it's best to get Bureaucracy when you can start building centers and build each next center only after it's necessary for Bureaucracy. But it seems impossible to keep it up so eventually Bureacracy must be dropped and look for something else to increase stability. I guess the policy will need some changes, eventually, when we have more experience with it.
Hmm I'm looking at the code and it looks like you can prebuild the centres? Seems to be (capital + admins) > turns since policy adopted/10

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Oberlus
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Re: Testing Government and Influence

#288 Post by Oberlus »

You're right. So the only problem is the need for an ever-expanding space to be able to build (or conquer) one RegAdmin every 10 turns.

The number of turns could be adjusted for balance, and maybe make it increase sub-linearly.

The stability bonus could decrease proportionally instead of dropping to zero when you need one more RegAdmin.

wobbly
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Re: Testing Government and Influence

#289 Post by wobbly »

I think I'll end up testing it, just need to check out how much centralization tanks my influence 1st. So.. Step 1: wait till I have the IP for both centralization + bureaucracy (need the stability to counter species disliking centralization). Step 2: build enough region centers to last me till I reach Interstellar Infrastructure (a lot since this 300 IP). Step 3: Swap out centralization for technocracy. Step 4: Hope and pray I got my calculations right and factored in board changes correctly (alternatively unadopt bureaucracy).

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Re: Testing Government and Influence

#290 Post by Oberlus »

wobbly wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 3:58 pm I think I'll end up testing it, just need to check out how much centralization tanks my influence 1st. So.. Step 1: wait till I have the IP for both centralization + bureaucracy (need the stability to counter species disliking centralization). Step 2: build enough region centers to last me till I reach Interstellar Infrastructure (a lot since this 300 IP). Step 3: Swap out centralization for technocracy. Step 4: Hope and pray I got my calculations right and factored in board changes correctly (alternatively unadopt bureaucracy).
For Centralization + Buraucracy + Extra influence upkeep from Centralization (= 0.2 * n_colonies * average distance to capital, until you get the first RegAdmin). Being able to see the average distance to capital would be an improvement regarding estimations before adoption.

Depending on when and how you do it, getting 300 IP isn't that hard. For several turns I had a surplus above 30 IP per turn (Environmentalism accounted for 7 IP per turn, around 10% of my total IP production, not much more than what you get with Propaganda, most of my IPs were coming from small planets set to influence).

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Grummel7
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Re: Testing Government and Influence

#291 Post by Grummel7 »

wobbly wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 6:53 am Ok centralization/beauracracy/techocracy. First issue its 3 slots and I have 2 without spending another 80 + 200 IP (2nd and 3rd infrastructure policies). But ok we can unadopt centralization for techocracy. 2nd issue we can no longer build regional admins for beuracracy, because we unadopted centralization.
Hi wobbly,

You overlooked an important point: The game discriminates between X requiring Y and X unlocking Y.

Centralization unlocks Regional Administration, i.e. it is enough to adopt Centralization for one turn, then you can build regional admins for the rest of the game.

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Re: Testing Government and Influence

#292 Post by wobbly »

Hmm.. That's possibly not great, unless its intended that players do a round or 2 of centralisation just for the region admin unlock.

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Oberlus
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Re: Testing Government and Influence

#293 Post by Oberlus »

wobbly wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 6:47 am Hmm.. That's possibly not great, unless its intended that players do a round or 2 of centralisation just for the region admin unlock.
I don't like that at all.

Also, I also dislike (but not so much) that policies A needed by other policies B can be de-adopted and still keep the B policy.

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Geoff the Medio
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Re: Testing Government and Influence

#294 Post by Geoff the Medio »

Oberlus wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 11:18 amI also dislike (but not so much) that policies A needed by other policies B can be de-adopted and still keep the B policy.
Some gameplay and/or fluff reasons for why prerequites need not be corequisites:
-A society can go through earlier stages of development or models to reach a later stage or model, but doesn't always need to keep operating under the older model(s) after also starting to operating under the later stage or model.
-Older and newer policies don't necessarily make much sense to have adopted simultaneously. Policy C could require B to adopt, and B could require A to adopt, but C and A could be mutually exclusive.
-There are limited slots, so being able to de-adopt a policy after reaching something it unlocks gives options for taking other policies instead.
-If the later policies have some substantial costs to maintaining them, then de-adopting the prerequisite is risky, since if one then has to de-adopt the later policy due to those costs becoming too burdensome for the empire, one might have an even longer series of intermediate prerequisites to get back to the later policy again than if those intermediate prereqs had been maintained.
wobbly wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 6:47 am...do a round or 2 of centralisation just for the region admin unlock.
It's an option, but they are also available from Interstellar Infrastructure. Could probably also add them as unlocks for having some particular bureaucratic species in the empire.

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Re: Testing Government and Influence

#295 Post by Ophiuchus »

Oberlus wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 11:18 am
wobbly wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 6:47 am Hmm.. That's possibly not great, unless its intended that players do a round or 2 of centralisation just for the region admin unlock.
I don't like that at all.

Also, I also dislike (but not so much) that policies A needed by other policies B can be de-adopted and still keep the B policy.
Adopting and unlocking policies is like a bit weird minigame and a place for mastery of it. I don't mind the minigame much. The main trouble for me is that you often I had to do the moves over multiple turns (e.g. turn 1) apply prerequiste, which also unlocks something, 2) apply the unlocked 3) deapply the prequisite and apply a policy you want instead).

OTOH the question is if we want such a minigame and what would be a better system.

For example, the de-adoptable A needed by other policy B is basically an implicit have-a-certain-number-of-slots-available-in-order-to-apply constraint.

I think for the others the weirdness of unlocks would fade if the policy needs to be adopted for a number of turns greater than one. E.g. if you were centralised for 5 turns in a row, unlock the administration buildings. Or those could have an e.g. influence cost if you are not centralised.
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

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Geoff the Medio
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Re: Testing Government and Influence

#296 Post by Geoff the Medio »

Ophiuchus wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 2:33 pmI think for the others the weirdness of unlocks would fade if the policy needs to be adopted for a number of turns greater than one. E.g. if you were centralised for 5 turns in a row, unlock the administration buildings. Or those could have an e.g. influence cost if you are not centralised.
Adding an influence cost if an empire doesn't have a policy adopted would be OK, but I'm reluctant to add more complicated conditions for prerequisites as it will make any display or analysis of the dependencies substantially more complicated.

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Re: Testing Government and Influence

#297 Post by Oberlus »

My only concerns about how policy prerequisite works is that in some cases it doesn't make sense to me, fluff-wise (no real objections regarding playability, minigame, mechanics...).
I agree with Geoff, there are cases where current system makes the most sense, but for others not so much. I must stress it: fluff-wise.
E.g. It might make sense to me to remove Planetary Infrastructure after adopting System Infrastructures. But if I wanted to make Vassalization to require Feudalism (because it makes no sense to have vassals without the vassal system that is Feudalism), then I would like to remove Vassalization if Feudalism is removed.
Having the two options, "require just to adopt" / "remove if prerequisite is removed" could be good. But I'm unsure, maybe we can make everything better (for this fluff-wise concerns of mine) with current mechanics. E.g. by introducing some interactions between the prerequisite and the other policy to make sense the effect with and without the prerequisite.

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Re: Testing Government and Influence

#298 Post by wobbly »

Geoff the Medio wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 2:17 pm
wobbly wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 6:47 am...do a round or 2 of centralisation just for the region admin unlock.
It's an option, but they are also available from Interstellar Infrastructure. Could probably also add them as unlocks for having some particular bureaucratic species in the empire.
With current numbers reaching interstellar infrastructure is around 400 IP (including pre-reqs), where as centralisation is around 10 - 15 IP

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Re: Testing Government and Influence

#299 Post by Ophiuchus »

wobbly wrote: Tue Nov 02, 2021 9:14 am
Geoff the Medio wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 2:17 pm
wobbly wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 6:47 am...do a round or 2 of centralisation just for the region admin unlock.
It's an option, but they are also available from Interstellar Infrastructure. Could probably also add them as unlocks for having some particular bureaucratic species in the empire.
With current numbers reaching interstellar infrastructure is around 400 IP (including pre-reqs), where as centralisation is around 10 - 15 IP
I guess would be good for testing purposes to require adopting for a longer period (e.g. 5 or 10 turns) before unlocking from centralisation. Mostly to see what the consequences are. I guess a empire going early for centralisation does not have trouble with that, but if you do not go for centralisation, you might prefer to wait for interstellar infrastructure?
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

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Re: Testing Government and Influence

#300 Post by wobbly »

Probably the simplest solution is to move the unlock from interstellar infrastructure to system infrastructure where the costs and timeframe to adopt are more comparable.

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