Testing Government and Influence

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Geoff the Medio
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Re: Testing Government and Influence

#106 Post by Geoff the Medio »

Ophiuchus wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 9:21 am
human2 wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 8:50 pmThere was a lot of waiting because I had to build a lot more buildings then I use to so that planets stayed happy.
Yikes. Hadn't thought about that - building likes/dislikes should probably always work on the supply network level. Exceptions could be ok for unique buildings.
The goal is definitely not that the player should need to produce a lot of buildings just because their species likes them being on the same planet. Rather, it should be that the player needs them anyway and might decide where... So perhaps species should like a lot less buildings so that stability boosts aren't a motivation to make lots of them. Local dislikes are probably still OK, though, as that won't inroduce a motivation to produce a lot of buildings everywhere...
human2 wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 8:50 pm I never actually used any of the government policies. I didn't have the hang of keeping influence above zero until later in the game.
They help your influence budget. Centralization is a great boost if you have a strong supply network. Balance also helped me a lot. Anyway you need the slots first.
There are also policies specifically for adjusting how much effect species likes and dislikes have on stability (liberty and conformance), and for boosting stability via various other means, like exporting luxury specials, artisan workshops for artistic species, martial law, terror suppression, indoctrination, environmentalism, dream recursion, diversity and racial purity. Perhaps try some of these before conclusing that it's too difficult to keep planets stable without building spam...

The AI definitely needs to be aware of the new mechanics.

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Re: Testing Government and Influence

#107 Post by wobbly »

I'm noticing that stability issues might be a little harsh for disconnected empires? Had a quick go with Fulver and -10 stability (not supply connected), +5 for capital species and my prefered focus (stockpiling) is locked behind generic supplies, so the only viable focus is protection.

I'll have more of a play around with the Sly, Fulver and Laenfa and see how bad it is, but its possible these races need more early likes. It'd be nice if they could at least hit 5 stability (robot production).

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Re: Testing Government and Influence

#108 Post by Ophiuchus »

wobbly wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 8:00 am I'm noticing that stability issues might be a little harsh for disconnected empires? Had a quick go with Fulver and -10 stability (not supply connected), +5 for capital species and my prefered focus (stockpiling) is locked behind generic supplies, so the only viable focus is protection.

I'll have more of a play around with the Sly, Fulver and Laenfa and see how bad it is, but its possible these races need more early likes. It'd be nice if they could at least hit 5 stability (robot production).
Great that you have a look at it. I guess an early policy to boost stability for disconnected empires would be good - probably industry or military based (social is still far away even with scrying sphere). Maybe a stability boost per supply group (e.g. +10 stability/numbers of colonies in the supply group; so +5 stability per planet if you have two planets in a supply group). This is also useful for others if you need to some time to bridge supply (I still mess this up currently - building a colony which is not able to connect to supply network, I think it is too harsh if there is no way to "fix it").

Besides, while unlocking generic supplies is not very expensive, Fulver probably need a specific boost to (at least partly) compensate for the inefficient focus type (stockpiling only redistributes PP you need to produce somewhere else). Maybe liking an early policy (e.g. the scouting fuel military one).

For mid-game the decentral empires need an extra social policy slot. I am not sure if scrying sphere is early enough.
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Re: Testing Government and Influence

#109 Post by Oberlus »

It is quite involved to keep track of the so many species likes and dislikes (regardless of documentation, which is absent).
Even using a spreadsheet it becomes crazy.

It would make sense to have ethical/value categories of policies, unrelated to Social/Economic/Military, to help with all this (both playability and scripting). Each policy would belong to a certain ethos/values, and each species would dis/like certain ethos/values.

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Geoff the Medio
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Re: Testing Government and Influence

#110 Post by Geoff the Medio »

How about:

-Giving Fulver, Sly, and Laenfa +5 stability on disconnected planets

-Giving some species, including Fulver, Sly, and Laefna, +1 social policy slot

-Adding a Self-Reliance economic policy, perhaps unlocked by Planetary Ecology tech, that boosts the stability of (up to) the three colonies that are not connected to the capital/regional admin, which have the lowest population

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drkosy
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Re: Testing Government and Influence

#111 Post by drkosy »

There was a lot of waiting
Played the recend weekly build as well and saw that as well. Sometimes it really seems nothing is going on because I was waiting for influence to rise. It's a bit discouraging if you have plenty of fleet but can't do anything because a new colony would drive you influence into negative range. I really don't know how to manage the experimentors coming up on turn 250...
I would love it if influence wasn't just pop dependent. That means:
1.) In the early game you need a lot of turns to push up you influence (settle planet, wait till pop growth is big enough for next colony)
2.) Pop related techs get even more important they were before. (In principal you have to rush through the green tech tree)
3.) If you end up with a bad start position with very low good planets around (I had just 1 medium good planet for 6 hops my last game) it is really hard to get something done.
4.) At the start of the game you nearly can't capture native worlds, because that 1 IP extra cost for the homeworld is a lot at that stage

Maybe switch it from 0.2*pop to something like 1 + 0.15 * pop could help in the early stages of the game. For 4 pop (adequate world with early growth techs) you would have 1 + 4*0.15 = 1.6 instead of 0.2 * 4 = 0.8. But in the mid game you would have 1 + 20 * 0.15 = 4 the same as 0.2 * 20 = 4. In the late game with gaia planets you would have less IP production on you planets which would slow down late adoption of planets. I think that easy tweak could accelerate the early game but slow down the late game, which I would like a lot.
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Geoff the Medio
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Re: Testing Government and Influence

#112 Post by Geoff the Medio »

drkosy wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 1:18 pmI would love it if influence wasn't just pop dependent.
Some specials, policies and and buildings give bonus influence that is popultion independent. Were they not viable?

I'll probably try making influence focus output proportional to the square root of population, which will similarly benefit small planets and penalize large planets' influence output.

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Re: Testing Government and Influence

#113 Post by Oberlus »

Geoff the Medio wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 10:22 am -Giving Fulver, Sly, and Laenfa +5 stability on disconnected planets

-Giving some species, including Fulver, Sly, and Laefna, +1 social policy slot
Maybe create new species traits, one for extra social policy slots, one for extra stability on disconnected colonies.
Geoff the Medio wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 10:22 am -Adding a Self-Reliance economic policy, perhaps unlocked by Planetary Ecology tech, that boosts the stability of (up to) the three colonies that are not connected to the capital/regional admin, which have the lowest population
Only up to three? With Sly or NO_SUPPLY you will have all your planets disconnected.

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Re: Testing Government and Influence

#114 Post by wobbly »

Oberlus wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 5:02 pm
Geoff the Medio wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 10:22 am -Giving Fulver, Sly, and Laenfa +5 stability on disconnected planets

-Giving some species, including Fulver, Sly, and Laefna, +1 social policy slot
Maybe create new species traits, one for extra social policy slots, one for extra stability on disconnected colonies.
Geoff the Medio wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 10:22 am -Adding a Self-Reliance economic policy, perhaps unlocked by Planetary Ecology tech, that boosts the stability of (up to) the three colonies that are not connected to the capital/regional admin, which have the lowest population
Only up to three? With Sly or NO_SUPPLY you will have all your planets disconnected.
Perhaps a bad(-5), good(+5) & great (+10) trait for disconnected stability? (or -3, +5, -8?) With Sly having great.

Also noticed Sly both like and dislike gas giant generators.

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Geoff the Medio
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Re: Testing Government and Influence

#115 Post by Geoff the Medio »

Geoff the Medio wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 10:22 am-Adding a Self-Reliance economic policy, perhaps unlocked by Planetary Ecology tech, that boosts the stability of (up to) the three colonies that are not connected to the capital/regional admin, which have the lowest population
Only up to three? With Sly or NO_SUPPLY you will have all your planets disconnected.
It's intended to make early colonization easier, before other options become available to manage influence and stability, not for removing long term consequences of species or empires that lack robust supply networks.

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Geoff the Medio
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Re: Testing Government and Influence

#116 Post by Geoff the Medio »

wobbly wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 5:30 pmAlso noticed Sly both like and dislike gas giant generators.
Most species building likes have been removed in master: https://github.com/freeorion/freeorion/ ... 7df69bb1f1

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Re: Testing Government and Influence

#117 Post by LienRag »

Geoff the Medio wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 10:20 amThere are also policies specifically for adjusting how much effect species likes and dislikes have on stability (liberty and conformance), and for boosting stability via various other means, like exporting luxury specials, artisan workshops for artistic species,
Interesting¹, but which are the Artistic species ?
I don't think it's mentioned anywhere (and I checked that it's not mentioned in the description for Artisan Workshop).


¹ Though the fluff is a bit lame imho.

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Re: Testing Government and Influence

#118 Post by wobbly »

LienRag wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 6:52 pm
Geoff the Medio wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 10:20 amThere are also policies specifically for adjusting how much effect species likes and dislikes have on stability (liberty and conformance), and for boosting stability via various other means, like exporting luxury specials, artisan workshops for artistic species,
Interesting¹, but which are the Artistic species ?
I don't think it's mentioned anywhere (and I checked that it's not mentioned in the description for Artisan Workshop).


¹ Though the fluff is a bit lame imho.
Anything with the artistic tag in \default\scripting\species

e.g. cynos, egassem, fiftyseven, human, misiorla, ourbools, scylior, silexian, sslith

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Geoff the Medio
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Re: Testing Government and Influence

#119 Post by Geoff the Medio »

wobbly wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 7:13 pmAnything with the artistic tag in \default\scripting\species

e.g. cynos, egassem, fiftyseven, human, misiorla, ourbools, scylior, silexian, sslith
I tried but put aside making the pedia list species with a particular trait. There is code for doing something similar, but it's awkwardly set up and I wanted / needed to work on other stuff, so decided to get back to the documentation issues later. It could be hard-coded into an article, but I wanted it to be autogenerated from the tags, similarly for any tag.

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Re: Testing Government and Influence

#120 Post by drkosy »

Some specials, policies and and buildings give bonus influence that is popultion independent. Were they not viable?
I play the weekly from 21-04-24 and didn't find any buildings related to influence. The regional administration addresses stability only, as do the likes and dislikes of species.
Most of the influence boosting policies aren't viable for me: I played gysache in a universe with a lot of empty space an monster guarded systems at my starting point. So centralisation would have killed my supply-support and actually would have cost more influence that it would have brought. Environmentalism is to late in the game, as I reached terraforming I had enough influence. Diversity is hard to reach because you have to catch some natives with means -1 IP for their homeworld.

Captured some egassem world early on, but did't know they are artistic. Well better to say: I didn't expect massiv lava bolders to be artistic...
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