Testing Government and Influence

Describe your experience with the latest version of FreeOrion to help us improve it.

Moderator: Oberlus

Forum rules
Always mention the exact version of FreeOrion you are testing.

When reporting an issue regarding the AI, if possible provide the relevant AI log file and a save game file that demonstrates the issue.
Message
Author
User avatar
Geoff the Medio
Programming, Design, Admin
Posts: 13157
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 1:33 am
Location: Munich

Re: Testing Government and Influence

#241 Post by Geoff the Medio »

wobbly wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 5:18 pm The scaling from liberty and conformance is only affecting buildings (not specials or policies). This is either a bug or the policy description is misleading.

My preferene is it affecting specials/policies in which case policies_macros and specials_macros are missing a line.
I'll add it to policies, but I'm not sure about specials. Liberty and Conformance are more about having opinions of what the empire is doing, so having them affect likes and dislikes of specials seems unnecessary.

wobbly
Space Dragon
Posts: 406
Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2013 6:48 pm

Re: Testing Government and Influence

#242 Post by wobbly »

Geoff the Medio wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 9:39 am
wobbly wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 5:18 pm The scaling from liberty and conformance is only affecting buildings (not specials or policies). This is either a bug or the policy description is misleading.

My preferene is it affecting specials/policies in which case policies_macros and specials_macros are missing a line.
I'll add it to policies, but I'm not sure about specials. Liberty and Conformance are more about having opinions of what the empire is doing, so having them affect likes and dislikes of specials seems unnecessary.
I consider specials "doing something". You're sticking a colony on the planet. You are sending people to work the factories of the tidally locked planet etc..

That said I'm fine with either option. Either way makes sense.

Grummel7
Space Squid
Posts: 66
Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2017 3:44 pm

Re: Testing Government and Influence

#243 Post by Grummel7 »

wobbly wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 7:13 pm
LienRag wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 6:52 pm
Geoff the Medio wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 10:20 amThere are also policies specifically for adjusting how much effect species likes and dislikes have on stability (liberty and conformance), and for boosting stability via various other means, like exporting luxury specials, artisan workshops for artistic species,
Interesting¹, but which are the Artistic species ?
I don't think it's mentioned anywhere (and I checked that it's not mentioned in the description for Artisan Workshop).


¹ Though the fluff is a bit lame imho.
Anything with the artistic tag in \default\scripting\species

e.g. cynos, egassem, fiftyseven, human, misiorla, ourbools, scylior, silexian, sslith
Another thing that should not be forgotten for Release 5.0. Should I make a GitHub issue for it?
Also, as far I can see, the stability effect described for Artisan Workshop (...will export aesthetically pleasing crafts to planets in their system, boosting the stability of those planets) seems missing, too.

wobbly
Space Dragon
Posts: 406
Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2013 6:48 pm

Re: Testing Government and Influence

#244 Post by wobbly »

Grummel7 wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 4:20 pm Another thing that should not be forgotten for Release 5.0. Should I make a GitHub issue for it?
Also, as far I can see, the stability effect described for Artisan Workshop (...will export aesthetically pleasing crafts to planets in their system, boosting the stability of those planets) seems missing, too.
Are you sure? From influence.macros

Code: Select all

        EffectsGroup        // artistic species make planets that like them or are also artistic and that are in their system more stable when set to influence focus
            scope = And [
                Planet
                InSystem id = Source.SystemID
                Not Source
                Species
                Not Species name = Source.Species
                //Or [  // TODO: implement once species-species opinions are working...
                    HasTag name = "ARTISTIC"
                //    (SpeciesSpeciesOpinion species = LocalCandidate.Species species = Source.Species > 0)
                //]
            ]
            activation = And [
                Species
                HasTag name = "ARTISTIC"
                Happiness low = 10
                Focus type = "FOCUS_INFLUENCE"
            ]
            accountinglabel = "ARTISAN_APPRECIATION"
            effects = SetTargetHappiness value = Value + 1.0

Grummel7
Space Squid
Posts: 66
Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2017 3:44 pm

Re: Testing Government and Influence

#245 Post by Grummel7 »

wobbly wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 4:28 pm Are you sure? From influence.macros

Code: Select all

        // TODO: should this move to happiness.macros ?
Yes it should :wink:

It only works when one artistic species is set to influence focus and another planet in the same system that has a different, but also artistic species. A lot of conditions for a lousy +1 bonus.

User avatar
Geoff the Medio
Programming, Design, Admin
Posts: 13157
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 1:33 am
Location: Munich

Re: Testing Government and Influence

#246 Post by Geoff the Medio »

Grummel7 wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 7:04 pmIt only works when one artistic species is set to influence focus and another planet in the same system that has a different, but also artistic species. A lot of conditions for a lousy +1 bonus.
It's not the only feature of the trait, so I didn't think it needed to be amazing, but I'll remove some of the requirements to get the bonus, in particular the focus requirement.

Grummel7
Space Squid
Posts: 66
Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2017 3:44 pm

Re: Testing Government and Influence

#247 Post by Grummel7 »

I saw that both the Translator and Indoctrination have been severely buffed.

By chance I found that the Translator can be built multiple times on the same planet. I doubt that that is intended.

Regarding Indoctrination: With the flat influence bonus, now the influence cost of 1 per colony really hurts, though it may still be worth it, +10 Stability helps a lot. One thing that bothers me, is that while it takes 40 turns to get your own people fully indoctrinated, conquered people catch up immediately. Wouldn't it make sense for a conquered planet to take 40 turns to get the full bonus as well? Scripting that requires a little code amendment, but I've done that already in my environment, if you like the idea.

User avatar
Geoff the Medio
Programming, Design, Admin
Posts: 13157
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 1:33 am
Location: Munich

Re: Testing Government and Influence

#248 Post by Geoff the Medio »

Grummel7 wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 7:05 pmI saw that both the Translator and Indoctrination have been severely buffed.
Is this really a "severe buff"? It changes from a 2x scaling to a flat bonus, and restricts it capital and regional admin planets.
By chance I found that the Translator can be built multiple times on the same planet. I doubt that that is intended.
Probably not.
One thing that bothers me, is that while it takes 40 turns to get your own people fully indoctrinated, conquered people catch up immediately. Wouldn't it make sense for a conquered planet to take 40 turns to get the full bonus as well? Scripting that requires a little code amendment, but I've done that already in my environment, if you like the idea.
Sure, sounds reasonable... Bonus would depend on the lesser of the time since adoption and the time since conquering a planet, then?

Ophiuchus
Programmer
Posts: 2202
Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2014 10:01 am
Location: Wall IV

Re: Testing Government and Influence

#249 Post by Ophiuchus »

Geoff the Medio wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 8:14 pm
Grummel7 wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 7:05 pmOne thing that bothers me, is that while it takes 40 turns to get your own people fully indoctrinated, conquered people catch up immediately. Wouldn't it make sense for a conquered planet to take 40 turns to get the full bonus as well? Scripting that requires a little code amendment, but I've done that already in my environment, if you like the idea.
Sure, sounds reasonable... Bonus would depend on the lesser of the time since adoption and the time since conquering a planet, then?
+1 (note this creates an unexpected result on reinvasion - your carefully indoctrinated people lost all of their indoctrination, but it is better than what we have now. and scripting for reinvasion sounds mostly impossible with the current system)
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

Look, ma... four combat bouts!

Grummel7
Space Squid
Posts: 66
Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2017 3:44 pm

Re: Testing Government and Influence

#250 Post by Grummel7 »

Geoff the Medio wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 8:14 pm Is this really a "severe buff"? It changes from a 2x scaling to a flat bonus, and restricts it capital and regional admin planets.
Sure it is. Not the +5 vs x2, but the restriction. I rarely want to set my capital to influence focus, since the square root effect favors smaller planets. And you cannot built lots of Regional Administrations, have to be 6 jumps apart, they get more expensive the more you build, and have non-trivial prerequisites, too. But I'll give it a try, Indoctrination needed a de-buff, +10 Stability without any real disadvantage was just too strong.
By chance I found that the Translator can be built multiple times on the same planet. I doubt that that is intended.
Probably not.
One thing that bothers me, is that while it takes 40 turns to get your own people fully indoctrinated, conquered people catch up immediately. Wouldn't it make sense for a conquered planet to take 40 turns to get the full bonus as well? Scripting that requires a little code amendment, but I've done that already in my environment, if you like the idea.
Sure, sounds reasonable... Bonus would depend on the lesser of the time since adoption and the time since conquering a planet, then?
Exactly. I'll create a pull request tomorrow.

User avatar
Geoff the Medio
Programming, Design, Admin
Posts: 13157
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 1:33 am
Location: Munich

Re: Testing Government and Influence

#251 Post by Geoff the Medio »

Grummel7 wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 9:14 pm
Geoff the Medio wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 8:14 pm Is this really a "severe buff"? It changes from a 2x scaling to a flat bonus, and restricts it capital and regional admin planets.
Sure it is. Not the +5 vs x2, but the restriction. I rarely want to set my capital to influence focus, since the square root effect favors smaller planets. And you cannot built lots of Regional Administrations, have to be 6 jumps apart, they get more expensive the more you build, and have non-trivial prerequisites, too. But I'll give it a try, Indoctrination needed a de-buff...
What do you mean by "severe buff" and "de-buff" then? To me, a "buff" is an improvement / increase / making something more useful or powerful. A "nerf" would be the opposite. A "severe buff" would be a very large increase in how powerful or useful something is.

Regardless, if you have suggestions for how better to balance Indoctrination, then please post or make a pull request...

Grummel7
Space Squid
Posts: 66
Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2017 3:44 pm

Re: Testing Government and Influence

#252 Post by Grummel7 »

Geoff the Medio wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 9:28 pm What do you mean by "severe buff" and "de-buff" then? To me, a "buff" is an improvement / increase / making something more useful or powerful. A "nerf" would be the opposite. A "severe buff" would be a very large increase in how powerful or useful something is.

Regardless, if you have suggestions for how better to balance Indoctrination, then please post or make a pull request...
I meant de-buff / nerf from the beginning, sorry for the confusion. :oops:

Indoctrination definitely was too powerful before. Now you will have to set a lot of planets to influence focus to use it. Whether it is too expensive I cannot tell without trying. It also depends on other changes, such as the reduced effect of the Translator.

Grummel7
Space Squid
Posts: 66
Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2017 3:44 pm

Re: Testing Government and Influence

#253 Post by Grummel7 »

Ophiuchus wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 8:53 pm +1 (note this creates an unexpected result on reinvasion - your carefully indoctrinated people lost all of their indoctrination, but it is better than what we have now. and scripting for reinvasion sounds mostly impossible with the current system)
Well, the meters start at zero after a reinvasion as well, so I don't think it would be unexpected.

I guess we could add a meter that meassures how strongly a population likes to go back to the old empire. This could affect a lot of things, but of course that is not a small change.

User avatar
Geoff the Medio
Programming, Design, Admin
Posts: 13157
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 1:33 am
Location: Munich

Re: Testing Government and Influence

#254 Post by Geoff the Medio »

Grummel7 wrote: Sun Aug 08, 2021 8:50 amI guess we could add a meter that meassures how strongly a population likes to go back to the old empire. This could affect a lot of things, but of course that is not a small change.
A species-empire-opinion tracking system is vaguely planned for post v0.5.0. This would be used for game mechanics like non-invasion annexation of planets, whether a non-owned planet will contribute to an empire, and how a planet's population reacts to a ground combat / invasion happening (is it a "liberation" or an "occupation"?).
Grummel7 wrote: Sun Aug 08, 2021 8:35 amIndoctrination definitely was too powerful before. Now you will have to set a lot of planets to influence focus to use it. Whether it is too expensive I cannot tell without trying.
Since it also/already requires a particular building and a policy, the focus requirement could be removed.

User avatar
Oberlus
Cosmic Dragon
Posts: 3885
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:25 pm

Re: Testing Government and Influence

#255 Post by Oberlus »

Geoff the Medio wrote: Sun Aug 08, 2021 9:48 am
Grummel7 wrote: Sun Aug 08, 2021 8:35 amIndoctrination definitely was too powerful before. Now you will have to set a lot of planets to influence focus to use it. Whether it is too expensive I cannot tell without trying.
Since it also/already requires a particular building and a policy, the focus requirement could be removed.
So Capital or planets with Reg. Admin would have the +5 influence regardless of focus, right?
In that case I think I like more to remove the Capital/RegAd requirement and keep the focus need.

Post Reply