git-HEAD default aggression make the game tedious for humans-players

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freem
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git-HEAD default aggression make the game tedious for humans-players

#1 Post by freem »

Well, all is in title.
Dev-version, "f6b83dc4b24e3ae62e127e45433ff1379f980fc7".
I use a local frequently synced copy of HEAD, and, by default, units don't attack planets? That's ok for non military units, but, for armed units that guards your territory, you need to did the change to every single f.... unit?
Sorry, but, as a player, I would like this feature still on, it might be of use (but I still don't see how) but it should clearly *not* be the default one.

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Oberlus
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Re: git-HEAD default aggression make the game tedious for humans-players

#2 Post by Oberlus »

freem wrote: Thu Oct 15, 2020 8:58 pm by default, units don't attack planets?
By default, units attack any valid target for their weapons.

Maybe you accidentally toggled the button for new fleet standings, making any new fleet "passive"?
Maybe your weapons could not target the planet?
Screenshots would be helpful.

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Geoff the Medio
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Re: git-HEAD default aggression make the game tedious for humans-players

#3 Post by Geoff the Medio »

Oberlus wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:55 amBy default, units attack any valid target for their weapons.
I assume this thread refers to the new obstructive fleet aggrression behaviour / setting.

Ophiuchus
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Re: git-HEAD default aggression make the game tedious for humans-players

#4 Post by Ophiuchus »

Geoff the Medio wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 3:43 pm
Oberlus wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:55 amBy default, units attack any valid target for their weapons.
I assume this thread refers to the new obstructive fleet aggrression behaviour / setting.
Would you care to explain what that is?
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Geoff the Medio
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Re: git-HEAD default aggression make the game tedious for humans-players

#5 Post by Geoff the Medio »

Fleets can be set to aggressive "initiate combat" to start combats and block enemy passage, passive "hide" to avoid detection and not start combats or block passage, or now "obstruct passage" to stop enemy passage but not start combats.

Other empires or neutrals can still start combats on their own, though.

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Re: git-HEAD default aggression make the game tedious for humans-players

#6 Post by Ophiuchus »

Geoff the Medio wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 10:26 am Fleets can be set to aggressive "initiate combat" to start combats and block enemy passage, passive "hide" to avoid detection and not start combats or block passage, or now "obstruct passage" to stop enemy passage but not start combats.
obstruct passage also blocks supply?

How does obstruct passage combine with map-stealth? Is one able to obstruct passage while being undetectable?
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Geoff the Medio
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Re: git-HEAD default aggression make the game tedious for humans-players

#7 Post by Geoff the Medio »

Obstruct passage is like aggressive, but doesn't start combats.

Ophiuchus
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Re: git-HEAD default aggression make the game tedious for humans-players

#8 Post by Ophiuchus »

Geoff the Medio wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:21 pm Obstruct passage is like aggressive, but doesn't start combats.
In that case i guess stealthed ships can blockade without being attackable. Will try soon.
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Geoff the Medio
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Re: git-HEAD default aggression make the game tedious for humans-players

#9 Post by Geoff the Medio »

Ophiuchus wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:49 pmIn that case i guess stealthed ships can blockade without being attackable. Will try soon.
Being non-stealthy or "attackable", and actively initiating combat are not, or don't need to be, the same thing.

wobbly
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Re: git-HEAD default aggression make the game tedious for humans-players

#10 Post by wobbly »

Sounds OP. Assuming the usual rules that a blockaded fleet can only move backwards. If it only halts the fleet and it can still progress, maybe ok

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Geoff the Medio
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Re: git-HEAD default aggression make the game tedious for humans-players

#11 Post by Geoff the Medio »

wobbly wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 6:47 amSounds OP.
Please avoid use of initialisms. I assume this means "overpowered", but I shouldn't need to.
Assuming the usual rules that a blockaded fleet can only move backwards. If it only halts the fleet and it can still progress, maybe ok
Overpowered for whom? The empire obstructing passage without forcing a battle? Why / how? The moving empire can still initiate a battle if they wan't. Please explain the perceived issue.

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Oberlus
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Re: git-HEAD default aggression make the game tedious for humans-players

#12 Post by Oberlus »

Geoff the Medio wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 8:22 am
Assuming the usual rules that a blockaded fleet can only move backwards. If it only halts the fleet and it can still progress, maybe ok
Overpowered for whom? The empire obstructing passage without forcing a battle? Why / how? The moving empire can still initiate a battle if they want. Please explain the perceived issue.
Might be this:

A single stealth (undetected) ship can block the entrance to your space indefinitely. One ship per chokepoint into your space, and you can play Sims for a while unworried.

IMO, blockading should take the form of either showing you first (losing stealth) or attacking (revealing you during combat). Invisible blockade not cool.

wobbly
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Re: git-HEAD default aggression make the game tedious for humans-players

#13 Post by wobbly »

Yes what Oberlus said and yes overpowered. A stealth ship in every chokepoint or blockading your shipyard. Paralysis by invisible ship.

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Geoff the Medio
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Re: git-HEAD default aggression make the game tedious for humans-players

#14 Post by Geoff the Medio »

Oberlus wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 8:52 amInvisible blockade not cool.
Yes, blockading should require giving up stealthiness for at least one ship in a system.

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Re: git-HEAD default aggression make the game tedious for humans-players

#15 Post by Ophiuchus »

Geoff the Medio wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 9:13 am
Oberlus wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 8:52 amInvisible blockade not cool.
Yes, blockading should require giving up stealthiness for at least one ship in a system.
I think we are kind of back at the "Aggressive Ships Combat Visible" rule discussion. This "one ship" is giving me troubles - it is the same mechanism for triggering combat with aggressive hidden ships (for optimisation you need to bring along an extra ship to sacrifice in order to initiate combat).

Maybe we could solve it this way:

Setting a ship to obstructive (or active) tries to blockade/establish blockade.

A ship trying to blockade/establish blockade is a reason for starting combat, even if all blockading ships are undetectable.
So an enemy setting a ship to aggressive can trigger combat in a blockaded system even if the enemy does not see the enemy ships on the map.

The blockading ships will participate in the combat, so will get the first shot without being shot at, but are unstealthed for the rest of the combat.

UI/Optional: if a system contains only undetectable blockading ships, a sensor ghost for an unknown ship is shown on the map

edit: on the other hand - is this functionality (blockade without initiating combat) really worth the price?
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

Look, ma... four combat bouts!

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