Make mid-game organic hulls more accessible

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ThinkSome
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Make mid-game organic hulls more accessible

#1 Post by ThinkSome »

Currently, the better organic warship hulls are locked behind 200RP "Lifecycle management". I propose that "Lifecycle management" is split into two 100RP items:
  • "Lifecycle management" that makes new colonies start with 1.5-2.0 pop and is a dependency for the "megafauna endocrine systems" and the item below.
  • "Advanced cryonics"/"suspended animation"/whatever that makes new colonies start with 3.0-5.0 pop and is a dependency for "controlled ravenous bioadaption(bioadaptation?)" and "endosymbiotic hull"
Additionally, getting an orbital incubator should be easier... it's 12 turns right now. Perhaps make it not depend on a basic shipyard being present? But make the organic upgrades depend on this thing being present (so 8 turns for basic organics + 8 turns for advanced organics). And maybe make the upgrades only take 6 turns to build.

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LienRag
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Re: Make mid-game organic hulls more accessible

#2 Post by LienRag »

Indeed, the advanced Organic Hulls tend to come in a batch...
Getting something more advanced than the Protoplasmic Hull (which has its advantage, but is extremely low structure, so not a potent fighter out of stealthy all-out first strikes) needs a long and quite low-return investment, but once the Lifecycle Manipulation (which by itself brings nearly nothing for its cost) is researched, there's only a few turns to wait to have all the powerful Hulls coming one after the other - the specificity of these Organic Hulls, Structure growth, being rendered nearly useless since better hulls become available at the same time than the older hull ships have grown enough to be efficient.
I don't know if splitting Lifecycle Manipulation is the right thing, maybe indeed it is a simple way to achieve a better streamline of new Hulls during the game and the corresponding technological progression.

Organic Incubator is 8 turns, not 12, do you have specific game settings ? And it's long to produce but quite cheap, I don't really see a problem there - the only problem one could see is that the Organic Hull itself is useless since the all-superior Symbiotic Hull comes at the same time than an Organic Incubator is produced.

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Oberlus
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Re: Make mid-game organic hulls more accessible

#3 Post by Oberlus »

Lifecycle Manipulation is great for faster growth. Starting at 3 pop means reaching max. production 10-15 turns earlier, almost as colonizing 8-12 turns earlier. That has a great reward.

ThinkSome
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Re: Make mid-game organic hulls more accessible

#4 Post by ThinkSome »

LienRag wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 12:39 am Indeed, the advanced Organic Hulls tend to come in a batch...
Organic Incubator is 8 turns, not 12, do you have specific game settings ? And it's long to produce but quite cheap, I don't really see a problem there - the only problem one could see is that the Organic Hull itself is useless since the all-superior Symbiotic Hull comes at the same time than an Organic Incubator is produced.
Orbital incubator is 4+8=12 turns as it needs a basic shipyard. Perhaps the (now made to have less slots) organic hull could be producable without an incubator? Perhaps make it take 5 turns without an incubator and 3 with?

wobbly
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Re: Make mid-game organic hulls more accessible

#5 Post by wobbly »

LienRag wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 12:39 am Getting something more advanced than the Protoplasmic Hull (which has its advantage, but is extremely low structure, so not a potent fighter out of stealthy all-out first strikes)
A fully grown protoplasmic actually has more basic structure then a robotic it just lacks the externals for a lot of armour. However you can make up for that by just having more of them and the reinforced hull tech is a bigger bonus on swarms of organics then big robots. I don't think they need to be stealth ships, they work as front line vessels same as symbiotics work. They are great as carriers and have room for a shield (though a shielded protoplasmic is fairly expensive).

The next one up is a longer wait then I like, but then again the next in the robotic line takes a fair while too.

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Re: Make mid-game organic hulls more accessible

#6 Post by Ophiuchus »

ThinkSome wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 1:01 am
LienRag wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 12:39 am Indeed, the advanced Organic Hulls tend to come in a batch...
Organic Incubator is 8 turns, not 12, do you have specific game settings ? And it's long to produce but quite cheap, I don't really see a problem there - the only problem one could see is that the Organic Hull itself is useless since the all-superior Symbiotic Hull comes at the same time than an Organic Incubator is produced.
Orbital incubator is 4+8=12 turns as it needs a basic shipyard. Perhaps the (now made to have less slots) organic hull could be producable without an incubator? Perhaps make it take 5 turns without an incubator and 3 with?
I like this suggestion, this means Organics may show up 6 turns earlier (which i think is a good thing).
But note that the Organic Hull was just changed this week (to cheap and lightweight) and is supposed to be superior to symbiotic in its roles (scouting, scout/harmless monster hunting).

i think if we take the investment in the incubator away Organic Hull would become a no-brainer and all empires would use those and spawn such everywhere (also they would be the new comsats). So lets rather split the current incubator into a series of two incubators (e.g. the first "Incubator" taking most PP and 3 turns and the second "School" or "Hull Training Center"-which depends on the first-taking few PP and taking 7 turns), which are unlocked by organic hull research. Organic Hull would only need the incubator, the next ones already the school.
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Oberlus
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Re: Make mid-game organic hulls more accessible

#7 Post by Oberlus »

Yes, all this needs careful thought. Same for the suggestions about increasing asteroid hulls internal slots.
Energy hulls also needs love, no body goes for those early, seldom mid game, and so they are unused in many games. And robos are too easy/fast to start with.
Best is to do a complete proposal with all hulls of all lines.
There are several threads on specific hulls, someone should unify it all.

wobbly
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Re: Make mid-game organic hulls more accessible

#8 Post by wobbly »

Are robotics too easy to get? I'd say at the time you 1st research it a fully fledged robotic is several turns of pp (slowing down colonisation) for a single ship that can't go far from supply. Compare to symbiots. By the time the incubator comes down you can not only build 1 but your outposters just became cheaper, faster with good detection & stealth as a bonus.

I'd say they are limited by PP instead of RP and that's fine if they are going to be the "default" combat ship.

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Oberlus
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Re: Make mid-game organic hulls more accessible

#9 Post by Oberlus »

wobbly wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 6:42 am Are robotics too easy to get? I'd say at the time you 1st research it a fully fledged robotic is several turns of pp (slowing down colonisation) for a single ship that can't go far from supply. Compare to symbiots. By the time the incubator comes down you can not only build 1 but your outposters just became cheaper, faster with good detection & stealth as a bonus.

I'd say they are limited by PP instead of RP and that's fine if they are going to be the "default" combat ship.
Yes, robos are expensive, but doesn't require to wait for the drydock upgrade, and the techs to get the hull can be research much earlier. So it is this dicotomy:
- Wait until turn 15 to build my first organic warship/outpost, meanwhile build basic hulls.
- Start building a sturdy robo warship much earlier and get it finished before any basic-hull blitzkrieg can knock at your door.
From there on, compared to the empire that went for organics, you have less ships but much durable. Unless you have many chokepoints to cover (i.e. no chokepoints, just many connections), robos will work just fine.

I do think that the difference in time required to get to the first ship (including building the required shipyard upgrade) is too much between certain hull lines. The small energy hulls should be possible earlier. All hull lines but robo should be quicker to get or preferably robo should be delayed a bit.

I don't like the concept of default (early-game) warship. In my ideal game, there should not be such a thing. I'd like to have 3 or 4 hulls viable early game.

In multiplayer: Static/symbiotic and robos are the common hulls since early to end game (to end game!!! crazy). When games last for long enough, Titanics are the preferred end-game hull. Asteroid hulls are a less popular mid game choice, and I never saw a scattered asteroid hull. Once I saw energy frigs and fractals, but the player going for it had a huge advantage since the beginning so he was toying more than playing.
I'd like to see more varied strategies since early game, blitzkrieg or early attack with something else than basic, organic and robo hulls. Blitzkrieg with basic hulls should still be a thing in some situations (small galaxy).
I also see the interest/fun of having hull lines that are much slower to master, like energy, but not at the price of making it a bad choice early/mid game and so always inefficient (i.e. if you got to self-gravs, don't bother going energy, too many RPs, just get Titanic).
Also, as you commented before, the time to get to the "second tier" hulls of some lines is too much, some hulls should appear earlier in the game.

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LienRag
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Re: Make mid-game organic hulls more accessible

#10 Post by LienRag »

Oberlus wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 1:47 pm Energy hulls also needs love, no body goes for those early, seldom mid game, and so they are unused in many games. And robos are too easy/fast to start with.

The problem with the Energy Hull line is that they're supposed to be fast but they actually aren't.
Their flagship indeed has 120 speed but with only one Internal Slot - which is usually used either for stealth or shield, it's quite suicidal to go without either, especially on a quite expansive hull - it's much slower than nearly any Organic Hull with a decently improved engine.

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Oberlus
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Re: Make mid-game organic hulls more accessible

#11 Post by Oberlus »

LienRag wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 2:27 am The problem with the Energy Hull line is that they're supposed to be fast but they actually aren't.
Their flagship indeed has 120 speed but with only one Internal Slot - which is usually used either for stealth or shield, it's quite suicidal to go without either, especially on a quite expansive hull
I'm not sure you are talking about the same FreeOrion I know. Energy hulls are the fastest.

What is that energy flagship with one internal slot?
The biggest energy hull, Solar, has 4 internal slots. I guess you mean the energy frigate, with same slots than the robotic hull but with +45 speed and less structure.
I never saw an energy hull with stealth or shields, and it seems like a bad idea: energy hulls have little stealth and come in late and with a strong research commitment, so adding stealth to the mix just delays everything else; and they have little structure so they get less benefit from the expensive shields (that can be easily ignored abusing fighters against shielded ships).

All energy hulls have base speed 120, so it is a bit confusing that you highlight the speed of one oh the energy hulls.

LienRag wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 2:27 am it's much slower than nearly any Organic Hull with a decently improved engine.
Organic hulls base speed 80. To make a 120-speed energy ship be "much slower" than "nearly any organic hull with a decently improved engine" you need to give organics mucho more speed than 120, so... 160? Are you mounting singularity engine cores on hulls without core slots?
Even if "much slower" means 120 vs 140 in your colorful La La Land, you need a core slot for that. The best engine that non-Sentient organic hulls can mount is N-Dim, +40 speed, and I doubt that even you would call 120 much slower than 120.


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wobbly
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Re: Make mid-game organic hulls more accessible

#12 Post by wobbly »

In a jumbled up way what he is saying is true. A bunch of symbiots with improved engine couplings are going to match energy frigates without for speed and be better value both in terms of RP and PP.

Edit: and in a protoplasmic you could fit the faster engines and still have 2 bomber bays. That's a bit cheaper to research then energy frigates. Energy frigates are 400 research including the prereq hull, they are never going to come online before plasma cannons(cheaper) or diamond plating(cheaper).

wobbly
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Re: Make mid-game organic hulls more accessible

#13 Post by wobbly »

Just looking the compressed hull is actually amazing value... except for spending 200 PP on the shipyard to get it...

Edit: So I can build about 6 fast symbiot radar scouts for cheaper then the shipyard to build the 1st compressed hull

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