V0.4.10.1 Feedback

Describe your experience with the latest version of FreeOrion to help us improve it.

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Anvil
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V0.4.10.1 Feedback

#1 Post by Anvil »

After some time I am now playing Freeorion again. Got V0.4.10.1 from git and liked it immediately: :D
  • The reduced bonuses avoid the explosive growth that many games with the old versions had.
  • Exobots are now only a poor replacement for real population, but all players can use them if they cannot conquer other races to make use of good planets that are hostile to their starting race.
  • The new weapon and fighter targeting rules make ship design more interesting
  • The border indicator for Ion Storms and Molecular Clouds is very useful.
Now here is a list of things I do not like are that could be improved:
  • Almost all research and production bonuses have been reduced, but three research bonuses have not and all of them now feel overpowered.
    1. Ancient Ruins still give 1 research / Pop. (plus the other extras)
    2. Temporal Anomalies still give 5 research / Pop.
    3. Distribute Thought Computing gives 0.1 research / Pop, even when Focus is not Research. It is affected by racial research ability if and only if the Focus is Research, which has means that e.g. researching Chato get 0.2, Researching Exobots get 0.05, but Producing Exobots get 0.1!
  • The new graphics for Nebula, Ion Storms and Molecular Clouds are too bright, it's sometimes hard to the star lines covered by them. (Accretion Disc is good, though, I often overlooked the old one)
  • Since we have now four completely different types of fighters, I suggest that the battle log should discriminate them as well.

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Oberlus
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Re: V0.4.10.1 Feedback

#2 Post by Oberlus »

Ancient Ruins is a rare special, and it only affects a single planet, so its bonus, while individually big, is not necessarily OP.
It's similar for Temporal Anomaly, but that is a more common special and it seems a bit OP (has been commented recently).
Distribute Thought Computing (DTC) is a bit OP compared to the rest of empire-wide research bonuses.

However, some have complained that the new bonuses are too small, specially the later ones, because it takes too long to amortize (compared to focusing on hulls, weapons, etc.).
It is planned to leave DTC as it is and increase a bit the bonuses of some of the other techs, but still smaller than what it was in 0.4.9.

Anvil
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Re: V0.4.10.1 Feedback

#3 Post by Anvil »

I haven't actually finished a game in 0.4.10, but thinking about it I agree that Enclave of the Void and Collective Thought Network and may now be a bit too weak.

Regarding the planet-only bonuses: Well, if you already have a 20 planets, getting a 21st with Ancient Ruins or Temporal Anomaly is surely not that big. But if you can place your initial colony ship on one of these, its a huge startup boost (Trith, and on blue stars also the phototropic races can indeed settle a TA planet immediately).

I remember a game (in an older version) where I played Egassim and found a unguarded medium inferno planet with Ancient Ruins a few star lanes from my home. First it kickstarted my research, later it gave me Death Rays and Banforo. That game quickly became a cake walk.

wobbly
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Re: V0.4.10.1 Feedback

#4 Post by wobbly »

Anvil wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 10:23 pm Regarding the planet-only bonuses: Well, if you already have a 20 planets, getting a 21st with Ancient Ruins or Temporal Anomaly is surely not that big. But if you can place your initial colony ship on one of these, its a huge startup boost (Trith, and on blue stars also the phototropic races can indeed settle a TA planet immediately).
Temporal Anomaly is still a big deal when you have a lot of planets. If you already have good research you can more easily pick up the techs that make it exponential. The following is close to 1/2 my research pool:
Temporal.png
Temporal.png (72.23 KiB) Viewed 1024 times

Magnate
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Re: V0.4.10.1 Feedback

#5 Post by Magnate »

It's not KISS that the racial bonus is multiplicative.

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drkosy
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Re: V0.4.10.1 Feedback

#6 Post by drkosy »

Maybe it would just be enough to have a clear documentation on that. For me it needed several games to understand what tech and special comes before species boni and what came afterwards.

Albedo
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Re: V0.4.10.1 Feedback

#7 Post by Albedo »

I'm having a problem with the (Ship) Designs page. When populating the "Finished" (i.e. active) designs from the Saved column ("Add all Saved Designs to Empire now"), it adds more than what is shown on that column. "Ghosts" of long-deleted designs are also occasionally added, both basic designs (which are long-since obsolete and deleted from Saved) and typos which I keep deleting. (Got really tired of deleting my "Scourt" and "bLargew" designs, as well as the basic "Colony Drop" which I wanted renamed.) Continually deleted from Finished, not visible in Saved, persistently populating in Finished when Add-All. (Finally solved by deleting EVERYTHING, including Obsoletes, and re-designing all from scratch.)


Also, not sure if this is intended or no...

I have Supply running in a chain of planets, A - (B) - C, where only A & C are colonized.

A peaceful neighbor colonizes B - and this breaks Supply?*

(* Can add game log, but unfamiliar w/ location, sorry - where do I find this?)


Possibly related, a peaceful neighbor has an outpost in a long-standing, peacefully shared system along a similar chain. Suddenly (without declaring war), that outpost (and orbiting "enemy" ships) breaks supply and blockades that planet. Still shown "at peace" on the Empires pop-up, and other of my planets with "peaceful enemy" ships are not blockaded. Did a save, and built a Lighthouse - nothing else appears to be in that system (and I checked - any neighbors within reach do not have the Tech to hide).

In both cases, zero reference to either system in SitRep, not that turn nor any recently previous turns.

(Both of these happened around Turn 120, if that helps any.)
Anvil wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 6:35 pm
  • Exobots are now only a poor replacement for real population, but all players can use them if they cannot conquer other races to make use of good planets that are hostile to their starting race.
Exobots are still the only(?) way to colonize asteroid outposts, so fill that niche.

Unfamiliar w/ previous versions, but this feels about right for what they are.

(Disappointed they cannot similarly colonize gas giant outposts - bots are bots - but hardly a dealbreaker.)
Oberlus wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 8:55 pm a bit OP compared to the rest of empire-wide research bonuses.

However, some have complained that the new bonuses are too small, specially the later ones...
Again, new player, but my thoughts on this...

That's what these sort of games are about, estimating "return on investment" (both short- and long-term), and any one player's game is not the same as any other. Some players (from what I've read) aim for highly crowded galaxies so they can blitz starting AI neighbors. Other players want more elbow room to start, and count on Player Intelligence > AI to get the starting edge. "Late game" will be different for each of these, and also for new players vs. experienced.

From the mental math I've done during play, most boosts are ~about~ 5% - often hard to justify in the short term, but (from playing these games before) I know that a "bite the bullet and get the boost" strategy is the winning one. So the "too small" argument may be very true for those who are blitzing, but may not be for those who are playing a more measured game.

These games have a form of exponential growth, so any boost-special for that 1st colony ship will be a game-changing jump start and subsequent massive boost to the growth curve of the entire game. The difference of having a 2nd planet in-system that you can quickly colonize is huge enough. Maybe limit nearby specials somehow, and restrict game-changing specials to only appropriately guarded planets, never unguarded, to guarantee that a rare easy "early boost" will not be that game breaker?
Last edited by Albedo on Tue Feb 09, 2021 11:38 pm, edited 3 times in total.

defaultuser
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Re: V0.4.10.1 Feedback

#8 Post by defaultuser »

I would try going to AppData\Roaming\FreeOrion\shipdesigns and seeing if the text file for the ships you don't want are still there. You'd probably need to search the files because they don't name them well anymore.

If you find them, then delete the files and see if that clears it up.

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Oberlus
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Re: V0.4.10.1 Feedback

#9 Post by Oberlus »

Albedo wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 11:11 pm I have Supply running in a chain of planets, A - (B) - C, where only A & C are colonized.

A peaceful neighbor colonizes B - and this breaks Supply?
AFAIK:
- If a planet has supply X, it will reach X hops away from it, and for each hope the suply strength goes down by one.
- When two empires have supply in a system (from planets in the system or propagating from planets in neighboring systems), the empire with greater supply in that system will own that supply (and the others will effectively have no supply there).
- Allied empires can share supply.

So I guess that peaceful neighbor has stronger supply in system B. Should your two empires be allied, you would still be able to share PP between A and C.
Also, even if you had no supply at all in B (so A and C were disconnected without before neighbor colonized B), if you are allies it would allow you to use its supply to connect A and C.
Albedo wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 11:11 pm Possibly related, a peaceful neighbor has an outpost in a long-standing, peacefully shared system along a similar chain. Suddenly (without declaring war), that outpost (and orbiting "enemy" ships) breaks supply and blockades that planet. Still shown "at peace" on the Empires pop-up
Armed ships blocked supply from your planets and allowed the outpost supply to be (artificially) stronger. Should you two be allied, you would still own supply there because the armed ships will not block supply of another ally.
Casus beli?

Albedo
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Re: V0.4.10.1 Feedback

#10 Post by Albedo »

I see, so Supply cannot be shared? Hrmmm... game paradigm is often a simply arbitrary decision, but this one seems counter-intuitive if you're "at peace". Should be same as "enemy" ships not blocking movement, no?
Oberlus wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 11:26 pmArmed ships blocked supply from your planets and allowed the outpost supply to be (artificially) stronger. Should you two be allied, you would still own supply there because the armed ships will not block supply of another ally.
But not if you're at peace - that does make sense.

Not expecting to "share" supply here, just not interfere w/ a "peaceful" neighbor (and vice versa).
Oberlus wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 11:26 pmCasus beli?
Oh, he's gonna get his casus beli'd real soon, trust me. :lol:

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Oberlus
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Re: V0.4.10.1 Feedback

#11 Post by Oberlus »

Albedo wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 11:44 pm I see, so Supply cannot be shared? Hrmmm... game paradigm is often a simply arbitrary decision, but this one seems counter-intuitive if you're "at peace".
Yeah, I see your point too.
The main reason for this is that the engine can't represent two empires owning supply of a same system (probably because it was a nightmare to represent it in the GUI so they decided to not allow overlapping supplies).
But look:
- War: gifting is not allowed, no vision shared, blockade supply and ship movement.
- Peace: gifting is allowed, no vision shared, blockade supply, allow ship movement.
- Alliance: gifting is allowed, vision is shared, supply is shared, allow ship movement.

So you can see Peace as the natural state for empires that do not trust each other (no shared vision) nor passively help each other (supply not shared) but can interact peacefully (allow gifting and ship movement). The interaction can be friendly (share species, divide up the space for colonization) or one can be the bully of the other ("I don't destroy you if you give me that juicy planet", or "You give me that planet and my fleet will protect you from that other uglier guy that is breathing at your neck"; AIs don't do that, so you won't see it in single player, and it's not a common scenario in multiplayer, but it's possible in theory).

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Re: V0.4.10.1 Feedback

#12 Post by Albedo »

Oberlus wrote: Wed Feb 10, 2021 12:05 amThe main reason for this is that the engine can't represent two empires owning supply of a same system (probably because it was a nightmare to represent it in the GUI so they decided to not allow overlapping supplies).
And no argument trumps "can't code it".

However, it still doesn't make sense. You allow warship movement, but don't allow "supply ship" movement? Sorry. <shrug>


Also, just fyi, Pedia currently states...
The Pedia (under Game Concepts/System Blockade) wrote:When an armed fleet set to aggressive mode arrives at a system, it will establish a system blockade against all empires it is at War with and that currently do not blockade the system. When a blockade is established, Supply propagation is interrupted for the blockaded empire...
Which, if one reads between the lines, could imply that "no blockade during Peace" was the original intent. Either way, that should pro'ly be changed.

(And perhaps this is starting to get Off Topic, maybe? Happy to continue this elsewhere. Maybe the relevant posts should get moved to a new thread?)
Last edited by Albedo on Wed Feb 10, 2021 1:29 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Oberlus
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Re: V0.4.10.1 Feedback

#13 Post by Oberlus »

Albedo wrote: Wed Feb 10, 2021 1:09 am And no argument trumps "can't code it".
Well, I meant that the current code doesn't allow. I guess it could be coded (and I think I read something about it was allowed time ago), the problem was the UI, too complicated.

However, it still doesn't make sense. You allow warship movement, but don't allow "supply ship" movement? Sorry. <shrug>
True, but if Peace would share supply (meaning that you could colonize right at the other side of the galaxy and get PPs there from your main supply group as long as you are at peace with everyone else in the middle), you would kinda kill supply restrictions. Alliance is a more sensible state (shared vision), players do not form alliances with whoever, they choose their allies carefully, so shared supply only for allies makes sense gameplay-wise (not so overkilling).

For it to make sense for you, you can think that to allow supply to someone else you should allow them also control of the refilling stations, starports and stuff in your space, that cost you, also giving them potential access to private information (or whatever, this is just fluff), so you only do that with allies.
Or rename alliance to peace, and peace to cease-fire.
The Pedia (under Game Concepts/System Blockade) wrote:When an armed fleet set to aggressive mode arrives at a system, it will establish a system blockade against all empires it is at War with and that currently do not blockade the system. When a blockade is established, Supply propagation is interrupted for the blockaded empire...
Could you open an issue at github for the devs to keep track of it?

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Re: V0.4.10.1 Feedback

#14 Post by Albedo »

Rationalizations are great, and especially important in something that is a "game" and not a "simulation", but, as you yourself pointed out above...
Oberlus wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 11:26 pmCasus beli?
... a blockade is an act of war. 8)

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Re: V0.4.10.1 Feedback

#15 Post by Ophiuchus »

Albedo wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 11:11 pm Disappointed they cannot similarly colonize gas giant outposts - bots are bots - but hardly a dealbreaker.
Gas giants are a niche intentionally kept free so hidden Sly empires can rise (more or less peacefully) inbetween an enemies supply network.

This changes maybe soon if influence upkeep works in the sense that (for a long time) colonize-everywhere is not an economic option.
Albedo wrote: Wed Feb 10, 2021 1:09 am However, it still doesn't make sense. You allow warship movement, but don't allow "supply ship" movement? Sorry. <shrug>
If you need fluff that works - peaceful empires are competing on an economic level, which the supply models. The competitors usually do not shoot at each other.

If another economy starts threatening your empire, you probably have to reach an agreement (e.g. alliance) or go to war.
Albedo wrote: Wed Feb 10, 2021 1:09 am
The Pedia (under Game Concepts/System Blockade) wrote:When an armed fleet set to aggressive mode arrives at a system, it will establish a system blockade against all empires it is at War with and that currently do not blockade the system. When a blockade is established, Supply propagation is interrupted for the blockaded empire...
Could you open an issue at github for the devs to keep track of it?
And please make an improvement suggestion, because from game mechanics viewpoint this is fine. Supply interruption is not blockade in game terms. It is one effect of blockade. Blockade is not the only reason for stopping supply propagation.
Last edited by Ophiuchus on Wed Feb 10, 2021 7:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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