Improvements to technology.

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truepurple
Space Kraken
Posts: 156
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2021 12:09 am

Improvements to technology.

#1 Post by truepurple »

Lots of work needs to be done with the technology tree. Lots of my time playing is wasted messing with the technology tree, since what to research and when makes a huge difference in game success or failure.

So if you select something that needs perquisites to research, it automatically moves the stuff required before it into your to research list. But what FO doesn't do, is keep them in a orderly fashion. If you move something in your research list that still needs prerequisites to get, then all the prerequisites necessary should move with it. (this can be an option, but I don't see why anyone would choose otherwise) Like if you move a tech to second to top of your list that has three other techs it needs researched first, those techs automatically move to the top of the list above it in the order of perquisite necessity. This will make it much easier to visually tell what is necessary for what just by looking at your research order list.

A word search function that moves the screen to a tech name that matches the word you put in. Also if you are on a tech page in the in game "Pedia" a button to press to take you straight to that tech for adding it to your research list.

A simplified reduced tech tree. The tech tree right now is way too massive and complex. How about for starters removing many techs that only exist as requirements for other techs but provide no advantages themselves.

Also maybe the tech tree can be more segregated and linear. Growth techs leading to growth techs, stealth techs leading to stealth techs etc, instead of a maze of options where one tech can lead to a completely different category of tech. And even when one type leads to the same type, what's shown on the tech tree is a mess where they are mixed together visually.

Also there are so many options, and they run completely independently of each other. Like do I want to research Mass driver, Laser, Plasma cannon, or Death ray I got to pick. And If I go down Laser 4 and get Solar web with organic ships, now I'm rather locked into that selection. What if instead all research contributes at least some to identical type research in another path. Like if I research Laser 4 and solar web, at least some or more research will fill all the other weapon branches equivalent to how much I invested in Laser 4 and solar web.

Similarly, let's say I invest tech up to diamond level plating. Now I find a good system with a good planet with asteroid in the system and want to get Rock armor plating as it's just as strong as diamond, but cheaper. All that research on Diamond would be wasted, unless it carried over just like with the weapons. This is especially pertinent as Rock armor itself might be quicker to produce, but Asteroid Reformation Processor required to add Rock Armor to your ships takes an insane amount of PP. So one has to waste research on the other plates so their ships aren't too weak while waiting for the damn ARP to make, well you could die waiting for that. And because you can't upgrade ships... One could say Rock Armor is a trap someone snuck into the game to sabotage new players. But if the research for the Rock armor tech lead to diamond tech and visa versa, it would at least be less of a trap.

truepurple
Space Kraken
Posts: 156
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2021 12:09 am

Re: Improvements to technology.

#2 Post by truepurple »

What if the graphics of the tech tree was a circle. In the center is the first techs, more advanced techs would appear going out. Each section (like cutting a piece of pizza) of the circle would be one type, thus generally techs can only have prerequisites of the same type. But the exceptions would be at the borders. So if the growth section and the hull section shared the same border, you could have cross requirements and thus the organic hulls.

On the flip side, here are some screenshots of the current tech tree at different zoom levels.
Selection_329.jpg
Selection_329.jpg (172.72 KiB) Viewed 2471 times
Does this look very readable to you? Especially on the bright colored researched ones.
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Selection_330.jpg
Selection_330.jpg (105.3 KiB) Viewed 2471 times
One zoom out and the boxes, their words all disappear leaving rather meaningless lines and hard to make out symbols.
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Selection_331.jpg
Selection_331.jpg (88.24 KiB) Viewed 2471 times
This is what you get if you wanted to see the whole giant tech tree at once. Utterly useless for picking techs. Why the the most advanced techs and randomly the planetary barrier techs so far to the right?
.
Selection_332.jpg
Selection_332.jpg (127.1 KiB) Viewed 2471 times
On the flip side, even zoomed in to this absurd degree, the interconnecting lines are too many. At this zoom level I could carefully follow the lines and see what is connected to one, then I'd have to write it down somewhere because zoomed to a more normal zoom, they look like a mess. Also notice how even super zoomed in to a useless level, it's a bit hard to read "supreme industrial center". Maybe the words can be inside stripes of black with white letters or white with black letters for much greater readability.

Ophiuchus
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Re: Improvements to technology.

#3 Post by Ophiuchus »

Most likely next incarnation of tech tree will be themed tiered tech tree, start your research here Themed Tech Tree Fundamentals
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

Look, ma... four combat bouts!

truepurple
Space Kraken
Posts: 156
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2021 12:09 am

Re: Themed Tech Tree Fundamentals

#4 Post by truepurple »

What if each (start) race had their own unique techs they can get, and some certain techs they can't make.

Otherwise if there really was a desire to mix and match "theme" and start race, we could have mutually exclusive techs, where once you research one kind of tech, you can't research the other or the techs that come after it. But it could be branches that are mutually exclusive.

BTW, completely different tech trees will be very hard to balance.
Last edited by truepurple on Wed Jul 14, 2021 9:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

Ophiuchus
Programmer
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Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2014 10:01 am
Location: Wall IV

Re: Themed Tech Tree Fundamentals

#5 Post by Ophiuchus »

truepurple wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 9:34 am What if each (start) race had their own unique techs they can get, and some certain techs they can't make.
First part in general would be acceptible if balanced and sparingly. Also there is the design rule: starting species != empire.
So you should be able to get the techs etc if you integrate the species into your empire. One could restrict effects to e.g. the capital (or make it policies) in order to bring down the number of possible combinations.

Second part is too much hassle/big a can of worms.

Does not fit this topic though - species-restricted-technology is not specific to themed tech tree ideas and also does not fit too well in the boxed UI scheme. If you have some suggestions, open up another topic.
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

Look, ma... four combat bouts!

truepurple
Space Kraken
Posts: 156
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2021 12:09 am

Re: Themed Tech Tree Fundamentals

#6 Post by truepurple »

Ophiuchus wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 9:42 am First part in general would be acceptible if balanced and sparingly. Also there is the design rule: starting species != empire.
So you should be able to get the techs etc if you integrate the species into your empire. One could restrict effects to e.g. the capital (or make it policies) in order to bring down the number of possible combinations.
I strongly disagree. Why are we even discussing "themes" if you insist on blending everything together eventually anyway? Why should you be able to get the tech if you integrate the species into your empire, because that's what seems most real to you? But it flies in the face of any idea of different approaches/uniqueness.

There is no point in having "themes" with your exception, none at all, especially if for some reason you haven't given, you reject mutually exclusive tech. Are you saying you can be both "oppressive" and "cooperative"? Such "themes" are obliterated if you can get both!

Ophiuchus
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Re: Themed Tech Tree Fundamentals

#7 Post by Ophiuchus »

truepurple wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 9:45 am There is no point in having "themes" with your exception, none at all, especially if for some reason you haven't given, you reject mutually exclusive tech.
Non sequitur. You did not do your research and thus make unreasonable points. If you want to contribute please read up.
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

Look, ma... four combat bouts!

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Oberlus
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Re: Themed Tech Tree Fundamentals

#8 Post by Oberlus »

The suggestions made by truepurple here have been already discussed elsewhere. The fact the truepurple is full of ideas and has plenty of time to spam the forum with them, but at the same time he is not interested on spending any of that time on reading previous discussions (that I acklowledge are lengthy and require a lot of time, but that's what it takes) means he is making these threads even more lengthy for future interested readers while not contributing anything new nor interesting, which is bad. I'm moving this later posts to another thread, when I find an appropriate one.

Ophiuchus
Programmer
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Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2014 10:01 am
Location: Wall IV

Re: Themed Tech Tree Fundamentals

#9 Post by Ophiuchus »

Oberlus wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 9:58 am The suggestions made by truepurple here have been already discussed elsewhere. The fact the truepurple is full of ideas and has plenty of time to spam the forum with them, but at the same time he is not interested on spending any of that time on reading previous discussions (that I acklowledge are lengthy and require a lot of time, but that's what it takes) means he is making these threads even more lengthy for future interested readers while not contributing anything new nor interesting, which is bad. I'm moving this later posts to another thread, when I find an appropriate one.
+1
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

Look, ma... four combat bouts!

Ophiuchus
Programmer
Posts: 3433
Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2014 10:01 am
Location: Wall IV

Re: Improvements to technology.

#10 Post by Ophiuchus »

Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

Look, ma... four combat bouts!

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