Local Solar System Management with hard made mock-up!

Describe your experience with the latest version of FreeOrion to help us improve it.

Moderator: Oberlus

Forum rules
Always mention the exact version of FreeOrion you are testing.

When reporting an issue regarding the AI, if possible provide the relevant AI log file and a save game file that demonstrates the issue.
Message
Author
truepurple
Space Kraken
Posts: 156
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2021 12:09 am

Local Solar System Management with hard made mock-up!

#1 Post by truepurple »

Local list.jpg
Local list.jpg (1.07 MiB) Viewed 3301 times


. . . . This took me a long time to make, Gimp is not the easiest to use. Also my cropping screen shot program Shutter really hates FO and kept crashing instead of taking a desired cropped screen shot. Obviously left side verses right side doesn't matter, I had already put one list on one side as I was fuddling around trying to figure out how to work Gimp, so it was easier to do it this way. But maybe the local currently being produced list should be closer to the default global production list.

. . . . See the global list will still be there acting like normal, but see the left side of middle "Items being produced at Zve" echo's that global list but only for that system. So if I were to remove "Orbital incubator" from "items being produced at Zve" (from now on just shortened to Zve and it will be a stand in for all local solar system lists like this) it would also get removed from the global list and visa versa.

. . . . You can mostly see in my mock-up how number of turns to produce in Zve is the same as global. But there is more room for information, a bar could be put there too or some number or something showing how much progress has already been put into a production. The bar etc. could go on the line below each item even if necessary, since a single SS production list wouldn't be very long. (bolded because I edited in this latter) I hope you folks get what I mean and I don't need a mock-up for that too.

. . . . As far as being able to reorder Zve list, that would be nice but not required. If we can reoder in Zve the question becomes, what of the global items in between not on the local Zve list? Just swap their locations on global with everything in between remaining the same.

. . . . This mock-up shows a split screen menu, but we could also add another tab along side buildings, ships, available, unavailable, producing and you click the producing tab to see that list. I prefer the split screen menu, there is enough space for it on a 1080 display. If we use a split screen menu, then the buildings, ships, available, unavailable tabs will still only affect the producible list, not the being produced list.

. . . . Ship production list is shared between planets, what planet is selected doesn't matter for what ship is producible, as long as one of the SS planets of Zve has the required buildings.

This idea would work very well with another idea of mine viewtopic.php?f=28&t=12110&sid=59a398b0 ... 924283a5b1
. . . . With that much quicker cycling thanks to that shorter cycling list idea, and this local management system idea, you can quickly go through all systems with production and know exactly what is being made where much easier. Global production lists can get very long, and these local echoing production lists can help with managing very long lists and to make sure you aren't producing anything redundantly/excessively.

Ophiuchus
Programmer
Posts: 3433
Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2014 10:01 am
Location: Wall IV

Re: Local Solar System Management with hard made mock-up!

#2 Post by Ophiuchus »

Ok what is good about the extra window: you can see local and global production queue and the options to add items to the list at the same time.

What is bad: this takes a lot of screen space. One could imagine it being hidden and providing a button to show it (or make it just an extra window, people who dont feel in control can show it).

What is ugly: the planet-local list will be probably quite empty (and waste screen space), it probably makes more sense to show this for system level, so having sublists for planet buildings.

p.s.: on another note: what could also be helpful is a more condensed view for items in the global production queue, so you see e.g. twice the number of items but less details. Maybe also color-coded item background per supply-group(?).
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

Look, ma... four combat bouts!

truepurple
Space Kraken
Posts: 156
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2021 12:09 am

Re: Local Solar System Management with hard made mock-up!

#3 Post by truepurple »

Ophiuchus wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 6:28 am Ok what is good about the extra window
What extra window? It's sharing real estate with the production window which has plenty of extra space as it is, so no extra screen space taken. and if this was a tab, no space taken.
What is bad: this takes a lot of screen space.
??? Were you looking at something else when you wrote this?
What is ugly: the planet-local list will be probably quite empty (and waste screen space), it probably makes more sense to show this for system level, so having sublists for planet buildings.
There is no planet local list, only solar system local lists. Planet buildings would be put on this SS local list as well.

Details about how far something is in production could be put on the next line to save horizontal space.
p.s.: on another note: what could also be helpful is a more condensed view for items in the global production queue, so you see e.g. twice the number of items but less details.
That is a different topic, but true, each item in global production takes up too much space, these big blocks, like those in the tech tree.

Maybe also color-coded item background per supply-group(?).
Interesting idea. theoretically it wouldn't apply much, but I suppose for when you get disruption etc it would be useful.

User avatar
Oberlus
Cosmic Dragon
Posts: 5715
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:25 pm

Re: Local Solar System Management with hard made mock-up!

#4 Post by Oberlus »

Ophiuchus wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 6:28 am Maybe also color-coded item background per supply-group(?).
That's the only feature commented in this thread that I would find actually useful for me, and I think it would be really great. Brilliant idea, Ophiuchus.

User avatar
LienRag
Cosmic Dragon
Posts: 2148
Joined: Fri May 17, 2019 5:03 pm

Re: Local Solar System Management with hard made mock-up!

#5 Post by LienRag »

truepurple wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 12:46 am . . . . This took me a long time to make, Gimp is not the easiest to use.
Yeah. Most of your suggestions would also take the one doing them a long time to make...
Nice that you took the time to do it (sincerely), and nice that other people are taking the time to make the game evolve little by little.
And it's very nice if you start understanding that.

truepurple
Space Kraken
Posts: 156
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2021 12:09 am

Re: Local Solar System Management with hard made mock-up!

#6 Post by truepurple »

LienRag wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 4:03 pm Yeah. Most of your suggestions would also take the one doing them a long time to make...
Nice that you took the time to do it (sincerely), and nice that other people are taking the time to make the game evolve little by little.
. . . Other things are being actively added to the game that I'm sure take even more time and effort, like that government stuff. But IMO this idea is much more valuable to game-play, if I had to pick between the new government 5.0 stuff and these two ideas, I'd pick these two ideas as I don't want to have to spend too much of my time messing with game mechanics when I play a game either, which is also wasted time. And if I had the skills to program this myself and knew it would become part of the game, I would.
LienRag wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 4:03 pmAnd it's very nice if you start understanding that.
I have understood that programming takes time from the beginning before I had posted even one thing on the forum, before I had even heard about this game!

The expression is, No shit, Sherlock! (for when people say painfully obvious things like they made some great discovery or witty observation)
Ophiuchus wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 6:28 am What is bad: this takes a lot of screen space. One could imagine it being hidden and providing a button to show it (or make it just an extra window, people who dont feel in control can show it).
As you might see in my other replies, I believe some misunderstanding is happening.

. . . The screen you are looking at is a Solar System production screen you would see if you double clicked on a system or cycled through them. If you want this hidden, all you'd have to do his click production again or hit escape a couple times all this will go away/be "hidden", just like normal. And just like normal, if you are looking at producing something in a system, you don't need to see the much of the map behind it, like with tech or ship building. As far as it overlapping a bit if the planet list were longer, that would have been fixable with just a bit of window resizing (and not even necessary unless the planet list is longer than that & you needed to see planet stats)

Here is a unmodified version, how things are currently.
Selection_347.jpg
Selection_347.jpg (454.62 KiB) Viewed 3220 times
Again yes all that takes up alot of map screen, but that isn't a problem.

Ophiuchus
Programmer
Posts: 3433
Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2014 10:01 am
Location: Wall IV

Re: Local Solar System Management with hard made mock-up!

#7 Post by Ophiuchus »

truepurple wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 6:34 pm Again yes all that takes up alot of map screen, but that isn't a problem.
You realize that on a different screen size there is less space, don't you sherlock
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

Look, ma... four combat bouts!

truepurple
Space Kraken
Posts: 156
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2021 12:09 am

Re: Local Solar System Management with hard made mock-up!

#8 Post by truepurple »

Ophiuchus wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 7:36 am You realize that on a different screen size there is less space, don't you sherlock
First, not technically true. If it's the same resolution, a smaller screen would just mean smaller everything, but same space, and 1080 has been the standard for any PC for awhile, and as far as I can tell this is a game specifically designed to run on PC's.

More importantly, my mock-up doesn't show anything taking up any significant needed extra space.

Even more importantly, you have shown that you are misunderstanding some things. I can not clear up your misunderstandings unless you work with me. Like your "extra window" is proof itself you are misunderstanding at least one thing, other things you said don't fit either.

What, you ask for a mock-up, but then don't even bother to really read what I got to say, don't work with me to clear up a misunderstanding, and instead you say this shit I quoted.

Ophiuchus
Programmer
Posts: 3433
Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2014 10:01 am
Location: Wall IV

Re: Local Solar System Management with hard made mock-up!

#9 Post by Ophiuchus »

truepurple wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:08 am "extra window" is proof itself you are misunderstanding at least one thing
maybe try reading again what i wrote (that sentence with the window)

thanks for doing a mock-up, it is the only reason that i was replying at all. it shows better what you imagine. the mockup in itself has some flaws as far as i understand you: e.g. the production window spills over the planet panels (which it should not) and more importantly it does not show that it is intended as a system management (you would need to show what you imagine maybe two with two planets building buildings).

the discussion here is mostly if and under which circumstances it would be acceptable to include this in case somebody would implement it (note though nobody expressed interest in implementing it)
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

Look, ma... four combat bouts!

User avatar
Oberlus
Cosmic Dragon
Posts: 5715
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:25 pm

Re: Local Solar System Management with hard made mock-up!

#10 Post by Oberlus »

Sometimes two images are worth two thousand words.
Selection_347.jpg
Selection_347.jpg (552.48 KiB) Viewed 3158 times
Local list.jpg
Local list.jpg (530.9 KiB) Viewed 3158 times
The screen space to see the map is valuable for many players, regardless of the resolution (seeing things too tiny is annoying, and most screens are not huge). TruePurple can not feel the same, but things must be done so that most players are happy with the result.
If the point is to have local lists for... clarity? (actually, I don't know what's the point), that can be achieved by using the global list with different color for the items being produced on the currently selected local system (i.e. local lists are highlighted within the global list), and that has many great advantages. To mention some that have been already commented but maybe repetition can help out here:
- It does not require an extra window -> players interesting on seeing the local list don't need to keep opening and closing the local-list window.
- It allows to see the global list at the same time so that rearranging items in the (local) list makes sense and is not confusing (keep in mind that the point of seeing the production list is to manage it, and seeing the local list does not allow for that).
- It does not require extra programming work because it is already done.


I believe most suggestions from TruePurple arise from his expectations to play a game mostly like MoO2 and Civ, with the same UI. This makes him suggest/demmand to introduce into the game the functionalities that the players that created this project around 2003 had in their no-no list for different reasons.

TruePurple, could you spend some time reading the design principles of FreeOrion, so that you can realize the red lines that won't be crossed and hence you can save your time and the time of those that bother to answer you for more useful suggestions and doubts?

And please, try not to be insulting in your answers to posts that didn't insult you, or I will ask permission to delete them for not being helpful.

truepurple
Space Kraken
Posts: 156
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2021 12:09 am

Re: Local Solar System Management with hard made mock-up!

#11 Post by truepurple »

If you want to see the full map, you go out of production. OK so screens windows too big and covering up too much.. let's see...
Selection_355.jpg
Selection_355.jpg (416.8 KiB) Viewed 3133 times
Damn science window, I can't see the map at all it's so huge, how will the people with small screens get by?
Selection_355b.jpg
Selection_355b.jpg (991.92 KiB) Viewed 3133 times
There we go, we removed a section equivalent to my expanded local production window. That should help people with smaller screens somehow? Now they can see more of the map from the research window, hazza!

What, you say you can just exit out of the research window? That you don't even need to see the map when doing research because it's for research, not map stuff? Hey, I think you're right.

Wait a minute, you know you can exit out of productions too? And maybe just maybe when you're in a system production screen you don't need to see every inch of the map?

See, if you click this
Selection_357b.jpg
Selection_357b.jpg (564.64 KiB) Viewed 3133 times
Or use hot key, or other methods too, wallah, now you can see the full map! It's astounding! Why didn't I think of this sooner!

Oh, I did, I bleeping talked about it over and over but certain people refuse to really listen to what I got to bleeping say!!!!
oberlus wrote:players interesting on seeing the local list don't need to keep opening and closing the local-list window.
My way isn't any more clicks, you are either in production screens, or not. That's how it is now! It would just be some extra info and ability to more easily manage said production when in that window. I already explained the purpose earlier, reread it if you are confused. If you got questions, go ahead and ask.
oberlus wrote:please, try not to be insulting in your answers to posts that didn't insult you
BS. You regularly insult me. Take this for example.
oberlus wrote:TruePurple, could you spend some time reading the design principles of FreeOrion
I did read them. I told you I've #%^! read them multiple times. You are insulting me here, so please stop with the insults..
Last edited by truepurple on Sun Jul 25, 2021 5:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.

truepurple
Space Kraken
Posts: 156
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2021 12:09 am

Re: Local Solar System Management with hard made mock-up!

#12 Post by truepurple »

Ophiuchus wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 11:26 am thanks for doing a mock-up, it is the only reason that i was replying at all. it shows better what you imagine. the mockup in itself has some flaws as far as i understand you: e.g. the production window spills over the planet panels (which it should not) and more importantly it does not show that it is intended as a system management (you would need to show what you imagine maybe two with two planets building buildings).
If I shifted things over a bit there'd be more than enough room. Two planets in the same system both building something would look similar in local as it would in global, listing what is being produced, how many turns left/how much production is currently already spent and what planet it's for. Hell, you could even just have a miniature version of global. Like just cut how that looks from the global list and repaste smaller for the local list. Can people envision what I mean or do I need to redo the mockup? (not sure how to resize images in gimp, that'd be a pain I can maybe avoid if people can imagine what I'm describing with words)

User avatar
Oberlus
Cosmic Dragon
Posts: 5715
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:25 pm

Re: Local Solar System Management with hard made mock-up!

#13 Post by Oberlus »

truepurple wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 5:27 pm If I shifted things over a bit there'd be more than enough room. Two planets in the same system both building something would look similar in local as it would in global, listing what is being produced, how many turns left/how much production is currently already spent and what planet it's for. Hell, you could even just have a miniature version of global. Like just cut how that looks from the global list and repaste smaller for the local list. Can people envision what I mean or do I need to redo the mockup? (not sure how to resize images in gimp, that'd be a pain I can maybe avoid if people can imagine what I'm describing with words)
A mockup would be better.

truepurple
Space Kraken
Posts: 156
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2021 12:09 am

Re: Local Solar System Management with hard made mock-up!

#14 Post by truepurple »

How about others? Any developers feel they need a second improved mock-up to better understand what I am saying where my words aren't enough?

Also Oberlus, it isn't just that I told you multiple times I've read the very short simple design principles, this idea along with my easier cycling idea brings the game considerably closer to those ideals by potentially significantly reducing the amount of time players waste messing with the game mechanics themselves and in general reducing the amount of time wasted doing things that isn't actual game-play. So for you to lecture me about them while arguing against them is... maybe ironic? is a good word?

Also I hope people get the point that the amount of map shown is largely irrelevant since it's a production window, not a map window, as long as you can see the map in the center so you know where you are, that's more than enough.

Also this is not a extra window, its a bigger split window. No extra time closing anything because it's not separate from anything and like I pointed out, it will all go away like normal/like it already does right now, once you close out local production. Also if this stuff gets reduced in info then trimmed out if someone shrinks the window size because they absolutely have to see some small side of the map while deciding production, then it would become naturally optional without even needing a box in options.

But again realistically speaking, if you want to see the map, you close out production and then you get the full view, no planets on the right side, global production on the left, or planet production option menus blocking your vision, so whether there is a tiny amount more screen space taken up on the side when in production is irrelevant.

As far as usefulness, I already mentioned the global list gets long with a large empire. If your list is short, sure it coloring blue according to what system you're in is enough. But if you got to scroll through a long list spotting the system/planet production, it becomes insufficient causing some wasted time searching.

Also if you recolor for different supply systems for general, the blue for local production will be even more lost in the mix.

rafafelp
Space Krill
Posts: 9
Joined: Wed Jan 29, 2020 3:06 pm

Re: Local Solar System Management with hard made mock-up!

#15 Post by rafafelp »

Adding my two cents: I would also prefer to have production on a dedicated full screen, like research or ship design. Apart from the "rally to" option, seeing the map isn't essential.

Post Reply