Change Bureaucracy

Describe your experience with the latest version of FreeOrion to help us improve it.

Moderator: Oberlus

Forum rules
Always mention the exact version of FreeOrion you are testing.

When reporting an issue regarding the AI, if possible provide the relevant AI log file and a save game file that demonstrates the issue.
Message
Author
User avatar
Oberlus
Cosmic Dragon
Posts: 5714
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:25 pm

Re: Change Bureaucracy

#16 Post by Oberlus »

LienRag wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 9:04 am The way Bureaucracy works as of now, you can choose between re-applying it or building a new IRA.
This option is interesting and should be kept in some way, imho.
I totally disagree. Reapplying is boring, repetitive, no thought on it, not fun. It is just a periodic action you must perform.

User avatar
LienRag
Cosmic Dragon
Posts: 2146
Joined: Fri May 17, 2019 5:03 pm

Re: Change Bureaucracy

#17 Post by LienRag »

IF you reapply it is indeed.
But deciding to reapply or to build a new IRA is a strategic decision.

For my proposition, I guess technically one way to do it would be a Policy "Palace Revolution" (or "Political Purge" or whatever) that would require Bureaucracy and would reset the timer for the bonus, while applying the aforementioned malus for Military ships and defenses for a set number of turns (ideally, this number of turn would be higher each time a Palace Revolution is called).

It can even be a Social Policy rather than an Economic one, in a way that would make more sense.
Maybe we could have another Military Policy, "HQ coup", that would have malus to Economy, Influence and Research instead of Military but still with the same effect of resetting the timer for the Bureaucracy bonus ?

Ophiuchus
Programmer
Posts: 3433
Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2014 10:01 am
Location: Wall IV

Re: Change Bureaucracy

#18 Post by Ophiuchus »

LienRag wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 9:47 am ...one way to do it would be a Policy "Palace Revolution" (or "Political Purge" or whatever) that would require Bureaucracy and would reset the timer for the bonus, ...
should be probably rather an influence project than a policy.

how about the IRA build up slack (e.g. unimportant but well-paid posts created to buy people away from important posts) and having a lot of slack gives bad effects.
you can remove slack buy influence project or by building a new IRA (all the useless people are transferred there in the beginning).
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

Look, ma... four combat bouts!

User avatar
Grummel7
Space Dragon
Posts: 335
Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2017 3:44 pm

Re: Change Bureaucracy

#19 Post by Grummel7 »

LienRag wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 9:47 am IF you reapply it is indeed.
But deciding to reapply or to build a new IRA is a strategic decision.
At least at the moment, you cannot build an IRA every 10th turn. I know that there are plans to loosen the distance rules and only make them more expensive when build closer to others, but even then the cost of another building would soon exceed to costs to reapply the policy by far.

And since IRAs reduce the upkeep cost under the suggested change, you still have a strategic decision whether you want to build another IRA to reduce the upkeep.

User avatar
LienRag
Cosmic Dragon
Posts: 2146
Joined: Fri May 17, 2019 5:03 pm

Re: Change Bureaucracy

#20 Post by LienRag »

Ophiuchus wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 12:44 pm
LienRag wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 9:47 am ...one way to do it would be a Policy "Palace Revolution" (or "Political Purge" or whatever) that would require Bureaucracy and would reset the timer for the bonus, ...
should be probably rather an influence project than a policy.
Agreed.
The Policy could be used as a stop-gap though, since we don't know when Influence Projects are going to be implemented.

Ophiuchus
Programmer
Posts: 3433
Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2014 10:01 am
Location: Wall IV

Re: Change Bureaucracy

#21 Post by Ophiuchus »

LienRag wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 1:36 pm
Ophiuchus wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 12:44 pm
LienRag wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 9:47 am ...one way to do it would be a Policy "Palace Revolution" (or "Political Purge" or whatever) that would require Bureaucracy and would reset the timer for the bonus, ...
should be probably rather an influence project than a policy.
Agreed.
The Policy could be used as a stop-gap though, since we don't know when Influence Projects are going to be implemented.
as a stop-gap, a self-destryoing building would still be better than shuffling around policies
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

Look, ma... four combat bouts!

User avatar
LienRag
Cosmic Dragon
Posts: 2146
Joined: Fri May 17, 2019 5:03 pm

Re: Change Bureaucracy

#22 Post by LienRag »

Oh, I didn't think of a self-destroying building, but it is a nice idea indeed.

The thing is that a Policy cost Influence while a building cost Production; and if one wants to use Production rather than Influence, there is the option of building an IRA.
So there would be two buildings for a somewhat similar purpose, while a Policy means that one has to be able to free a Policy slot for the Palace Revolution policy - it may be a harder choice.

Also, it's more logical to have a disruption in the Empire military caused by a Policy than by a building.

Daybreak
Vacuum Dragon
Posts: 641
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2018 10:14 pm

Re: Change Bureaucracy

#23 Post by Daybreak »

LienRag wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 9:04 am The way Bureaucracy works as of now, you can choose between re-applying it or building a new IRA.
Ism't it a bit ridiculous requiring a new IRA every 10 turns you have Bureaucracy, I mean its not like having that extra 5 stability may be worth it, especially as the test game we are playing has upped base stability by 5, a kind of indication that its currently too low.

If we feel the need for something, why not create a new building. A Police headquarters which is cheaper, and takes less time to build, same 10 turn build requirement but when you have one in every system the need goes away. The current requirement for an IRA is then only for weak capital links.

User avatar
LienRag
Cosmic Dragon
Posts: 2146
Joined: Fri May 17, 2019 5:03 pm

Re: Change Bureaucracy

#24 Post by LienRag »

If it isn't, you don't use Bureaucracy, it's quite simple...
Not all Policies are to be used in all cases.

User avatar
Grummel7
Space Dragon
Posts: 335
Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2017 3:44 pm

Re: Change Bureaucracy

#25 Post by Grummel7 »

Btw., I've updated the PR to divide the costs by sqrt(1 + Number of Admin buildings). This makes it a little more expensive, especially for big empires.
Using sqrt(population) / (1 + Number of Admin buildings) meant that it actually got extremely cheap when you had lots of IRA. Using sqrt in both cases makes more sense.

User avatar
LienRag
Cosmic Dragon
Posts: 2146
Joined: Fri May 17, 2019 5:03 pm

Re: Change Bureaucracy

#26 Post by LienRag »

I playtested it and it's mostly impossible (especially for a new player) to understand what the cost is/will be...

The old behavior was clunky but at least it was entirely predictable.

User avatar
Oberlus
Cosmic Dragon
Posts: 5714
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:25 pm

Re: Change Bureaucracy

#27 Post by Oberlus »

No, it wasn't predictable.

User avatar
Grummel7
Space Dragon
Posts: 335
Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2017 3:44 pm

Re: Change Bureaucracy

#28 Post by Grummel7 »

LienRag wrote: Sun Sep 04, 2022 4:15 pm I playtested it and it's mostly impossible (especially for a new player) to understand what the cost is/will be...

The old behavior was clunky but at least it was entirely predictable.
Just switch it on and see what it costs, where's the problem?
Yes, costs are not constant, but they do not change quickly, neither.
Perhaps Pedia should give the exact formula.

Post Reply