Change Bureaucracy

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Grummel7
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Change Bureaucracy

#1 Post by Grummel7 »

Another design discussion that emerged in the middle of another thread. Let's start an extra an and get a to conclusion. I'll have to adapt the AI, once the change is done.
Ophiuchus wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 11:00 am
Oberlus wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 10:15 am
wobbly wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:58 am
If its effectively going to be a bunch of regular IP payments every x turns it really belongs in influence projects instead of policies. Not sure if IP projects are still part of the master plan.
Yes. And in that case, that's the same as adding a constant IP cost per turn.

I think I just don't like the way Bureacracy works currently. Having to reset the empire's bureaucracy periodically is boring (and nonsensical to me). I would prefer something about increasing or decreasing colony upkeep depending on the ratio colonies/IRAs.
well said. +1 to changing Bureaucracy policy to a constant influence cost based on that ratio; having the cost as big lumps of prepaid IP at certain points in time does not add much i think (multi prepaid lump payments is notably different from the normal costs - but probably not better).
I strongly favour constant payments as well. In the AI I wasted a lot of effort trying to get a stable priority for the resource influence (compared to production and research) due to this constant ups and downs. I hope things will get smoother with constant costs.

So let's see: The adoption cost of both Centralization and Bureaucracy is floor(2.0 * [[POPULATION_OWNED_BY_EMPIRE]]^0.5) and you have to spend every (10 x (Admin Buildings + 1)) turns, unless you keep Centralization. Well, actually it is more, because adopting Centralization for one turn always cost a lot of additional IP the due to the reduced IP production.

Ignoring the drop, we end up with:
-0.4 * [[POPULATION_OWNED_BY_EMPIRE]]^0.5 / (Admin Buildings + 1), which should reduce the capitals IP production after all modifiers, or maybe distributed amongst all populated planets.
While Centralization is adopt, the number would be halved or even less than that, after all keeping Centralization costs a fortune in IP itself as soon as you have more than a few colonies.

Ophiuchus
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Re: Change Bureaucracy

#2 Post by Ophiuchus »

another +1 to all things which make the AI easier to program
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

Look, ma... four combat bouts!

wobbly
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Re: Change Bureaucracy

#3 Post by wobbly »

Grummel7 wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 8:33 pm Another design discussion that emerged in the middle of another thread. Let's start an extra an and get a to conclusion. I'll have to adapt the AI, once the change is done.
Ophiuchus wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 11:00 am
Oberlus wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 10:15 am
Yes. And in that case, that's the same as adding a constant IP cost per turn.

I think I just don't like the way Bureacracy works currently. Having to reset the empire's bureaucracy periodically is boring (and nonsensical to me). I would prefer something about increasing or decreasing colony upkeep depending on the ratio colonies/IRAs.
well said. +1 to changing Bureaucracy policy to a constant influence cost based on that ratio; having the cost as big lumps of prepaid IP at certain points in time does not add much i think (multi prepaid lump payments is notably different from the normal costs - but probably not better).
I strongly favour constant payments as well. In the AI I wasted a lot of effort trying to get a stable priority for the resource influence (compared to production and research) due to this constant ups and downs. I hope things will get smoother with constant costs.

So let's see: The adoption cost of both Centralization and Bureaucracy is floor(2.0 * [[POPULATION_OWNED_BY_EMPIRE]]^0.5) and you have to spend every (10 x (Admin Buildings + 1)) turns, unless you keep Centralization. Well, actually it is more, because adopting Centralization for one turn always cost a lot of additional IP the due to the reduced IP production.

Ignoring the drop, we end up with:
-0.4 * [[POPULATION_OWNED_BY_EMPIRE]]^0.5 / (Admin Buildings + 1), which should reduce the capitals IP production after all modifiers, or maybe distributed amongst all populated planets.
While Centralization is adopt, the number would be halved or even less than that, after all keeping Centralization costs a fortune in IP itself as soon as you have more than a few colonies.
I think this is fine as an initial change. Though at some points its worth looking at just how cheap that is for +10 stability.

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Re: Change Bureaucracy

#4 Post by Oberlus »

wobbly wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 10:38 am I think this is fine as an initial change. Though at some points its worth looking at just how cheap that is for +10 stability.
If I understood it right, it's about upping influence upkeep while Bureaucracy is adopted. A constant IP payment that forces you to have extra planets set to influence (so less PP and RP).

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Re: Change Bureaucracy

#5 Post by wobbly »

Oberlus wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 10:58 am
wobbly wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 10:38 am I think this is fine as an initial change. Though at some points its worth looking at just how cheap that is for +10 stability.
If I understood it right, it's about upping influence upkeep while Bureaucracy is adopted. A constant IP payment that forces you to have extra planets set to influence (so less PP and RP).
Yeah, but I suspect the actual influence cost is a lot less then say, indoctrination.

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Re: Change Bureaucracy

#6 Post by Oberlus »

I think Bureaucracy is +5 stability and Indoctrination is +10. IP costs should be balanced, indeed.

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Re: Change Bureaucracy

#7 Post by Oberlus »

I think Centralization should be changed along with Bureaucracy.

Centralization gives +0.1*pop PP and +0.06*pop RP only to capital, both unfocused. That is nice to have at start but quite useless mid to late game.
The malus, on the other hand, is irrelevant early game and crippling mid game.

I'm not sure how, but Centralization malus should be balanced with the bonus: noticeable but not crippling early game, less noticeable mid game when the bonus is less important.
Take for example Propaganda Broadcast: it's great early game, and can have it's uses late game if there are spare social slots, and no malus. You can have it when you should have something else, losing some efficiency, but not crippling your empire. On the other hand, Centralization is like the devil when you have a few planets, even if you can build IRAs fast (because you need to build there first, so a minimum of -2.5 influence for a few turns in the new planets planning to build an IRA). Adopting it late game when not floating in IP is like ending game, and to be floating in IP you must be sacrifycing PP and RP already so you'd be punished even before adopting Centralization.

For now, let's consider moving to Centralization the Good/Bad Empire Capital Connection thingy that currently applies from start, tweaking it to be just a penalty (-1 stability per jmp away).
And moving the distance-based IP malus to Metropoles (maybe removing the maximum number of metropoles).

Thoughts?

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Grummel7
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Re: Change Bureaucracy

#8 Post by Grummel7 »

wobbly wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 11:18 am
Oberlus wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 10:58 am
wobbly wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 10:38 am I think this is fine as an initial change. Though at some points its worth looking at just how cheap that is for +10 stability.
If I understood it right, it's about upping influence upkeep while Bureaucracy is adopted. A constant IP payment that forces you to have extra planets set to influence (so less PP and RP).
Yeah, but I suspect the actual influence cost is a lot less then say, indoctrination.
The long term cost of bureaucracy should roughly be the same as it is now. The difference will be that you no longer have to renew it regularly, spending a lot of IP at once, instead you pay at little every turn.

Indoctrination is hard to compare. It's costs are relatively high, but when you can make good use of the +5 on capital and IRA, Indoctrination may even be cheaper than bureaucracy.

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Grummel7
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Re: Change Bureaucracy

#9 Post by Grummel7 »

Oberlus wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 3:31 pm I think Centralization should be changed along with Bureaucracy.

Centralization gives +0.1*pop PP and +0.06*pop RP only to capital, both unfocused. That is nice to have at start but quite useless mid to late game.
The malus, on the other hand, is irrelevant early game and crippling mid game.

I'm not sure how, but Centralization malus should be balanced with the bonus: noticeable but not crippling early game, less noticeable mid game when the bonus is less important.
Take for example Propaganda Broadcast: it's great early game, and can have it's uses late game if there are spare social slots, and no malus. You can have it when you should have something else, losing some efficiency, but not crippling your empire. On the other hand, Centralization is like the devil when you have a few planets, even if you can build IRAs fast (because you need to build there first, so a minimum of -2.5 influence for a few turns in the new planets planning to build an IRA). Adopting it late game when not floating in IP is like ending game, and to be floating in IP you must be sacrifycing PP and RP already so you'd be punished even before adopting Centralization.
What makes you think that IRA affect Centralization? That doesn't even make sense from the description.

The way it is now, Centralization is nearly useless. Even with very small empires the fact that it reduces the capital supply by 2 and every non-connected colony pays 4 IP often makes it impossible to keep.
Oberlus wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 3:31 pm For now, let's consider moving to Centralization the Good/Bad Empire Capital Connection thingy that currently applies from start, tweaking it to be just a penalty (-1 stability per jmp away).
And moving the distance-based IP malus to Metropoles (maybe removing the maximum number of metropoles).

Thoughts?
I definitely do not think that Metropoles need another malus. Has anyone played it lately? Well, perhaps they'll get more useful once liberty has been changed, so the -5 on most planets do not cost so much free research anymore.

Moving the Good/Bad Empire Capital Connection to Centralization? That would be a drastic change. And it does not fit, since Centralization concentrates on the capital, while the connection stability also works with IRAs.

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Re: Change Bureaucracy

#10 Post by Oberlus »

Grummel7 wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 7:09 pm What makes you think that IRA affect Centralization? That doesn't even make sense from the description.
[...]
Moving the Good/Bad Empire Capital Connection to Centralization? That would be a drastic change. And it does not fit, since Centralization concentrates on the capital, while the connection stability also works with IRAs.
The IP malus from Centralization works on IRAs too, right? That's why Centralization and IRAs are tied. I don't like it either, makes no sense. A different policy "Regionalism" or something would make sense.
I don't really know what to do with that mess.

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Re: Change Bureaucracy

#11 Post by Grummel7 »

Oberlus wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 7:26 pm The IP malus from Centralization works on IRAs too, right? That's why Centralization and IRAs are tied. I don't like it either, makes no sense. A different policy "Regionalism" or something would make sense.
I don't really know what to do with that mess.
No, it does not and they are not tied neither, Centralization is just one way to unlock IRAs.

Let's do one step at a time. People complained about the need to regularly reapply Bureaucracy.

Centralization is a Policy for the beginning. You better apply it once, because it unlocks several things and depending on the situation, it may be worth keeping it for a while. I would like to reduce its penalties to make it a serious option for small empires, but that is another discussion.

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Re: Change Bureaucracy

#12 Post by Oberlus »

All right. One step at a time.

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Re: Change Bureaucracy

#13 Post by wobbly »

Grummel7 wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 7:44 pm
Oberlus wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 7:26 pm The IP malus from Centralization works on IRAs too, right? That's why Centralization and IRAs are tied. I don't like it either, makes no sense. A different policy "Regionalism" or something would make sense.
I don't really know what to do with that mess.
No, it does not and they are not tied neither, Centralization is just one way to unlock IRAs.
I suspect the confusion here is that connection to a regional admin works for stability. Centralization is however specifically the capital.

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Re: Change Bureaucracy

#14 Post by Grummel7 »

Created a PR.

It is using

Code: Select all

-0.5 * [[POPULATION_OWNED_BY_EMPIRE]]^0.5 / (Admin Buildings + 1)
instead of -0.4 to make up for the additional cost caused by adopting Centralization. Still for big empires it is relatively cheap. But then it also has this focus change penalty. I think balancing wise it is okay.

With Centralization its down to -0.2, which may make C. a little more useful in the beginning.

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Re: Change Bureaucracy

#15 Post by LienRag »

The way Bureaucracy works as of now, you can choose between re-applying it or building a new IRA.
This option is interesting and should be kept in some way, imho.

Probably the main thing is that re-applying Bureaucracy should be less of a chore that it is now, it should have consequences in-game as it is somehow two regime changes in a short period.

Like, disrupting the military (think of Stalin's purge a few years before the Great Patriotic War) : remove protection focus for a few turns, halve all defenses, no ship repairs, morale loss (when ship morale will be implemented), maybe halve ship shields and launch capacity...

I don't know if the game can track the number of times Bureaucracy has been re-applied, but the number of turns of military disruption could grow with each re-application of Bureaucracy (people grow tired of ceaseless and meaningless political change without anything actually changing).

That way deciding to re-apply Bureaucracy would need careful planning and execution, and an enemy monitoring your actions could time a surprise attack when he'll expect to catch you in a state of military disruption - real strategic implications, not a boring no-brainer anymore.

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