Centralization

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Ophiuchus
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Re: Centralization

#16 Post by Ophiuchus »

Oberlus wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 5:54 pm
Grummel7 wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 12:10 pm
Oberlus wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 8:47 am - Unlock it after getting your second populated planet (colonization or invasion).
Can we script that?
Good question... Can policies be unlocked in an effect?
Pretty sure geoff added that capability. Edit: yes, its called UnlockPolicy and is currently used e.g. to give policies to species (e.g. Trith, Fulver, Sly)
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Oberlus
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Re: Centralization

#17 Post by Oberlus »

Grummel7 wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 12:10 pm
Oberlus wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 8:49 am Either IRAs are actually something specific to Centralization (and then you get no bonuses from IRAs when there is no Centralization policy adopted), or IRAs are something incompatible with Centralization, not unlocked by centralization, and not necessary for policies that depend or are very related to Centralization.
Hm, why not unlock them by Bureaucracy? Makes a lot more sense indeed.
That is compatible with this, right?
wobbly wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 8:27 am If the aim is to make the policy viable later in the game. "centralized around regional admins" would probably scale more easily then "centralized around the capital".
Bureaucracy could be the "upgrade" of Centralization. From "centralized around Capital" to "centralized around capital+IRAs". The stability bonus from Bureacracy (+5) and from IRAs (distance dependent) could or should be scripted in the policy Effect, if we accept that IRAs have no bonuses unless certain policies are adopted.

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Re: Centralization

#18 Post by wobbly »

Oberlus wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 8:53 am
Grummel7 wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 12:10 pm
Oberlus wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 8:49 am Either IRAs are actually something specific to Centralization (and then you get no bonuses from IRAs when there is no Centralization policy adopted), or IRAs are something incompatible with Centralization, not unlocked by centralization, and not necessary for policies that depend or are very related to Centralization.
Hm, why not unlock them by Bureaucracy? Makes a lot more sense indeed.
That is compatible with this, right?
wobbly wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 8:27 am If the aim is to make the policy viable later in the game. "centralized around regional admins" would probably scale more easily then "centralized around the capital".
Bureaucracy could be the "upgrade" of Centralization. From "centralized around Capital" to "centralized around capital+IRAs". The stability bonus from Bureacracy (+5) and from IRAs (distance dependent) could or should be scripted in the policy Effect, if we accept that IRAs have no bonuses unless certain policies are adopted.
I like this, or something similar to this, where the policies fit around a playstyle (building up regional admins and positioning the colonies). It's better then everyone takes bureaucracy for their free +5 stability.

Edit:

+1 to supply changes suggested by Oberlus and Ophi

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Re: Centralization

#19 Post by Oberlus »

Some time ago ThinkSome opened a thread about how the 6+ jumps between IRAs restriction was a nightmare to play with.

I've been trying to play with Bureaucracy, Conformance, Indoctrination... and trying to maximize the ratio IRAs:colonies and minimize average distance to IRA.
In 4 out of 5 starts, there was no planet at 6 jumps from capital (empty systems). So annoying to be forced to settle at 7 or 8 jumps because of that, you lose 1 or 2 stability in many planets.
In several occasions, roughly half the time, my capital was in or connected to a loop of systems with length lesser than 10 jumps, so I could not place an IRA in any of those planets (the system at 6 jumps going clockwise is the one at 5 jumps going anticlockwise). If there is a planet further away after those, then no problem, but there wasn't.

Could we base the placement restriction in uu distance between IRAs (instead of current number of jumps)? I think that would keep the minigame interesting enough but make it less of a headache.

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drkosy
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Re: Centralization

#20 Post by drkosy »

If you know France you know centralisation :)
Paris as capital is one of the less big cities of the country. Something like that should centralization be. So why not giving the capital +1*habitable size and reducing the same amount from all colonies. That makes it harder to colonize adequate planets but gives your capital some boost.
Of cause that should not be the only effect. I like the idea of +1 to capital supply range as well as the idea to give -0.1 PP and RP per pop to each colony to provide a bonus to the capital (maybe +0.1 per pop at capital) but the bonus should be higher than the malus to make the policy worth to be adopted.
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Grummel7
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Re: Centralization

#21 Post by Grummel7 »

Oberlus wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 8:53 am
Grummel7 wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 12:10 pm Hm, why not unlock them by Bureaucracy? Makes a lot more sense indeed.
That is compatible with this, right?
Well, it surely doesn't contradict it. Bureaucracy definitely needs IRAs and so far that was no problem, because Centralization was a prerequisite an it unlocked them. When we decouple the two, Bureaucracy should unlock them and we can them change Centralization without affecting Bureaucracy. If they get a meaning for Centralization (or maybe Metropoles), we can also unlock them there.
Oberlus wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 8:53 am
wobbly wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 8:27 am If the aim is to make the policy viable later in the game. "centralized around regional admins" would probably scale more easily then "centralized around the capital".
Bureaucracy could be the "upgrade" of Centralization. From "centralized around Capital" to "centralized around capital+IRAs". The stability bonus from Bureacracy (+5) and from IRAs (distance dependent) could or should be scripted in the policy Effect, if we accept that IRAs have no bonuses unless certain policies are adopted.
Centralized around regional centers sounds pretty much like Metropoles to me. Which is unlocked by Centralization, btw. In my opinion a policy that boosts planets with Regional Administrations requires way too many changes to be implemented in V0.5. At the moment you can build an IRA even at an outpost that does not produce anything at all.

Incidentally, this weekend I had a game in which I kept Centralization, with its current rules, up to turn 90-something. It wasn't a good I game (Trith still suck!) and I finally lost it. Perhaps we should not change so much, except, I think that part was generally agreed, to remove the supply penalty.

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LienRag
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Re: Centralization

#22 Post by LienRag »

Well, the Supply penalty is what makes the Policy challenging and peculiar, so I'd rather follow Oberlus' suggestion to give a Supply bonus to the Capital and keep the penalty for other planets than remove it entirely...

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Re: Centralization

#23 Post by Oberlus »

I'll make a PR to tweak Centralization influence extra costs. -4 per planet is just unbearable.

If Bureaucracy is not adopted: -0.2 per jump away from capital capped at -4 (so maximum malus at 20 hops away).
With Bureaucracy: -0.2 from nearest capital or IRA-set-to-influence-focus.

Anyone against it? Or something to tweak in my proposal?

LienRag wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 9:14 pm Well, the Supply penalty is what makes the Policy challenging and peculiar
That is utterly false. Centralization's main challengeproblem is its huge influence cost overrun. -1 Supply to capital is just negligible: colonize something nearby or plop an outpost.

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Re: Centralization

#24 Post by wobbly »

Oberlus wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 9:00 am I'll make a PR to tweak Centralization influence extra costs. -4 per planet is just unbearable.

If Bureaucracy is not adopted: -0.2 per jump away from capital capped at -4 (so maximum malus at 20 hops away).
With Bureaucracy: -0.2 from nearest capital or IRA-set-to-influence-focus.

Anyone against it? Or something to tweak in my proposal?
I'd consider adding the supply change suggested by multiple people, no capital malus, supply malus on colonies. Or maybe in a seperate commit if it interferes with the core change.

otherwise: +1

P.S. : interesting

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Re: Centralization

#25 Post by Oberlus »

+1

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Grummel7
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Re: Centralization

#26 Post by Grummel7 »

Oberlus wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 9:00 am I'll make a PR to tweak Centralization influence extra costs. -4 per planet is just unbearable.

If Bureaucracy is not adopted: -0.2 per jump away from capital capped at -4 (so maximum malus at 20 hops away).
With Bureaucracy: -0.2 from nearest capital or IRA-set-to-influence-focus.

Anyone against it? Or something to tweak in my proposal?
Interesting idea, especially since B. cost is also reduced by having C. adopted. It also gives you another reason to plan IRA with influence focus, which may help you with indoctrination later.

Still I think in most cases, the effect of C. would be to small to be worth the costs. Don't forget that it also increases the cost of outposts.

If we want to make C. an long-term option, its bonuses should depend on the size of the empire, e.g. current bonus times sqrt(number of pop. planets). This also makes a sense fluff-wise.
Oberlus wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 9:00 am
LienRag wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 9:14 pm Well, the Supply penalty is what makes the Policy challenging and peculiar
That is utterly false. Centralization's main challengeproblem is its huge influence cost overrun. -1 Supply to capital is just negligible: colonize something nearby or plop an outpost.
The problem with the -2 is that it often disconnects your first colony, which then costs 4 IP / turn. So in many cases you have to chose between using C. or building a colony.

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Re: Centralization

#27 Post by wobbly »

I had another thought here on extending the life of centralization. What if you only paid the influence penalty on colonies outside capital supply? (or the distance was reduced by capital supply). Then you could have colonies in that 1 jump radius at start. 2 after orbital construction and another 4 jumps if you build a space elevator.

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Re: Centralization

#28 Post by wobbly »

Another idea is a range that increases with turns adopted.

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Re: Centralization

#29 Post by LienRag »

wobbly wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:31 am Another idea is a range that increases with turns adopted.
Not sure if that's KISS, but it's interesting...

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Re: Centralization

#30 Post by Ophiuchus »

Supply based and adoption based IP cost.

I like both ideas. It reintroduces a reason to switch capital to a more strategic place.

Second one is more of a long term commitment. First one is different for different species (George loves this).
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