Shield Strength too strong or bug?

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Oberlus
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Re: Shield Strength too strong or bug?

#31 Post by Oberlus »

Regarding the suggestion of making shields also work against fighters.

Absolutely no.

It would bring the problem of making shields a must-have and reduce diversity in ship designs.

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Re: Shield Strength too strong or bug?

#32 Post by wobbly »

I'm mostly out of this thread on the grounds I don't think either side is going to agree. I just had 1 comment on shield balance in general.

I think shields get more viable on the bigger more expensive ships. So possibly plasma and up are ok. The cost compared to the return on defense grid or deflector shield is too high. I'd certainly be happy to see these become cheaper. Maybe plasma could be cheaper/easier to research too, its sort of on the cut-off point where shields start working. Not sure.

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Re: Shield Strength too strong or bug?

#33 Post by wobbly »

Ok I lied, I have 1 more post :)

Maybe a compromise on RIS is to cap it much lower but make it much cheaper. Make it an actual early game shield for robotics that don't have shield techs instead of a gimmick.

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Re: Shield Strength too strong or bug?

#34 Post by Oberlus »

I like those suggestions, I think they are sound.

Defense Grid: 15 PP, 50% of current RP. Intended for early game to counter MD and help against Laser.
Deflector: 25 PP, 66% of current RP. Intended for mid game (to counter Laser and help against Plasma guns.
Plasma shield: 50 PP, 75% of current RP. Mid to late game, particularly for bigger hulls.
Black shield: 120 PP (like now), only for big hulls (core part). Late game.
RIS: change formula in a way TBD... But if it can be used in late game too (so not too low the cap) it would be nice. It's the only shield that can keep up with tech development, same than old carriers are still great late game.

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LienRag
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Re: Shield Strength too strong or bug?

#35 Post by LienRag »

Daybreak wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 11:31 pm
1) From everything I have read previously, fighters/bombers all fight inside the shields. is that correct or not?
Yes, that is the basic concept.
Fighters are able to move inside the shields to fire their weapons at point blank.
It's quite intuitive and a classic space opera trope, though absolutely not realistic (but space combat in space opera settings is imagined as a revival of WWII warship combat transposed in space, so realism is quite absent anyway).


Daybreak wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 11:31 pmNot more dangerous themselves because they survived, but as shield strength decreases, more able to do damage. Even newly launched fighters would have the same advantage.
Then as Oberlus wrote, it's (imho) a bad idea.
I thought that you meant that fighters would gradually go under the shields instead of going there on turn 2, and that may have been a good idea.



Daybreak wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 11:31 pm And if you ever read any sci fi books that is how every space battle is depicted, Shields must be reduced to zero to get past and do damage, however the current mechanics of spillover of fire power also get past the shields is ok too.
Shield would be too similar to structure then, so I prefer what we have now. But yes your idea is not stupid either, it's just not the design choice that was made.

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Re: Shield Strength too strong or bug?

#36 Post by Daybreak »

Oberlus wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 11:32 am
RIS: change formula in a way TBD... But if it can be used in late game too (so not too low the cap) it would be nice. It's the only shield that can keep up with tech development, same than old carriers are still great late game.
I believe the cap should be 40, which reflects the PP cost compared to
More expensive than Robotic with Deflector shield with shield strength of 30; and
Less Expensive than Robotic with Plasma shield with shield strength of 54

You would only need a stack of 6-7 ships to achieve that.

LienRag wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 4:47 pm
Daybreak wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 11:31 pmNot more dangerous themselves because they survived, but as shield strength decreases, more able to do damage. Even newly launched fighters would have the same advantage.
Then as Oberlus wrote, it's (imho) a bad idea.
I thought that you meant that fighters would gradually go under the shields instead of going there on turn 2, and that may have been a good idea.
Its a concept, and there is way more to it once you actually see the numbers. I assumed people would see the numbers in their head like I did - I will flesh it out more and post it in
In Other game design.
LienRag wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 8:20 pm Anyway I'm getting a bit more confident in my ability to propose a new (and way better) combat system in a few months (end of august if I'm very optimistic) and fighters are one thing that would change a lot (not entirely sure as of now of how exactly - I have the general idea but balancing it will probably require a lot of work).
Hopefully sooner.

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Re: Shield Strength too strong or bug?

#37 Post by Oberlus »

Daybreak wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:03 pm I assumed people would see the numbers in their head like I did
I think your first assumption was correct:

Daybreak wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 12:17 am I would think that Fighters have to attack though shields, just like energy weapons.
However -
1st round Shields at full strength
2nd round Shields at 2/3rd's strength, and fighters get to attack
3rd round Shields at 1/3rd strength, and fighters get to attack if not destroyed or part of a secondary drop.
4th round Shields at 0 strength, and fighters get to attack if not destroyed or part of a third drop.

OR

1st round Shields at full strength
2nd round Shields at 60% strength, and fighters get to attack
3rd round Shields at 20% strength, and fighters get to attack if not destroyed or part of a secondary drop.
4th round Shields at 0% strength, and fighters get to attack if not destroyed or part of a third drop.

whatever % that starts to balance out fighters and shields.
I easily understood those number pretty perfectly.

My objection is that this system makes the estimation of the outcome of a battle considerably harder, because damage done on each round for a given weapon is now different. Annoying.

Plus not really solving any balance problem: if fighters do less damage at start and more damage at the end, fleets with plenty of PD and shields would be the best choice, because PD removes the fighters on second round (so fighters inflicted close to no damage) and therefore shields are always good to have.

Also, Daybreak, you still lack a lot of knowledge about the game mechanics. You are jumping to conclusions at the first sign of anecdotal difficulties in your games. I think it is you the one that is not seeing the numbers, e.g. the huge PP commitment that is to build a stack of robos with RIS compared to using cheaper warships and more colonies for extra production. Less numbers in the head, more numbers in spreadsheets and combat simulations.

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Re: Shield Strength too strong or bug?

#38 Post by Daybreak »

Question Oberlus

Is it better to have -

RIS
Defence Grid
Deflector shields
Plasma Shields
Black Shields

When it comes to Fighters?

The answer is none of them

You keep going on about the Risk of using RIS but the fact is it does not matter which shield you use the same risk exists for all of them.

Based on PP cost, then RIS falls in the middle of Deflector and Plasma shields. Therefore its strength should be based on that. I beleive that strength should be capped at 40

I keep saying its not about risk or counter, its about where RIS should fit "within other shield stregths and their cost", and currently I believe they are too strong.

Fighters -
Would you agree or argue against the fact that in most cases early game it makes a lot of sense to just have big stacks of cheap carriers with fighters, like you and for that matter everyone are currently building? Very cheap to build, and ignores shields.
So would you agree or not? I ask you just to answer that question.


I believe that the current fighter situation is unbalanced, and I don't think just making shields cheaper is the answer. But I am not going to engage in the rest of your conversation about it, until I put it down on paper. You will have your chance to disparage me all over again then.

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Re: Shield Strength too strong or bug?

#39 Post by Ophiuchus »

Daybreak wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 11:47 am You keep going on about the Risk of using RIS but the fact is it does not matter which shield you use the same risk exists for all of them.
that is because you claimed the robotic interface shields is overpowered, to which (it seems) nobody else agrees.

if your main point (now) is that the robotic shield is too cheap compared to the others...
i think oberlus argued to make the other shields more accessible (earlier/cheaper). So Id guess both of you kind of agree on that point.

anyway the discussion is way past its value here, so i am out
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

Look, ma... four combat bouts!

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Re: Shield Strength too strong or bug?

#40 Post by Daybreak »

Ophiuchus wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:49 pm
Daybreak wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 11:47 am You keep going on about the Risk of using RIS but the fact is it does not matter which shield you use the same risk exists for all of them.
that is because you claimed the robotic interface shields is overpowered, to which (it seems) nobody else agrees.

if your main point (now) is that the robotic shield is too cheap compared to the others...
i think oberlus argued to make the other shields more accessible (earlier/cheaper). So Id guess both of you kind of agree on that point.
at its current supposed strength of being able to get to 120 strength being 30 more strength than a 90 strength Black Shield then it is overpowered, for how cheap it is. At this stage of the game nobody can even get close researching Black shield or close to that strength.

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Re: Shield Strength too strong or bug?

#41 Post by wobbly »

Daybreak wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 5:35 pm
Ophiuchus wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:49 pm
Daybreak wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 11:47 am You keep going on about the Risk of using RIS but the fact is it does not matter which shield you use the same risk exists for all of them.
that is because you claimed the robotic interface shields is overpowered, to which (it seems) nobody else agrees.

if your main point (now) is that the robotic shield is too cheap compared to the others...
i think oberlus argued to make the other shields more accessible (earlier/cheaper). So Id guess both of you kind of agree on that point.
at its current supposed strength of being able to get to 120 strength being 30 more strength than a 90 strength Black Shield then it is overpowered, for how cheap it is. At this stage of the game nobody can even get close researching Black shield or close to that strength.
What stage of the game are we actually talking about? The stage of the game where you can plonk down a stack of 58 robotic ships onto the board, like it's actually nothing?

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Re: Shield Strength too strong or bug?

#42 Post by Daybreak »

wobbly wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 5:47 pm What stage of the game are we actually talking about? The stage of the game where you can plonk down a stack of 58 robotic ships onto the board, like it's actually nothing?
Wobbly I dont think its nothing - but a stack of 20 ships at this stage of the game is pretty easy with a shield strength of 69.

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Re: Shield Strength too strong or bug?

#43 Post by wobbly »

Daybreak wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 5:56 pm
wobbly wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 5:47 pm What stage of the game are we actually talking about? The stage of the game where you can plonk down a stack of 58 robotic ships onto the board, like it's actually nothing?
Wobbly I dont think its nothing - but a stack of 20 ships at this stage of the game is pretty easy with a shield strength of 69.
Checked the numbers. Easy in this case is around 15 turns of full production for me, based on a single gun ship. Or roughly the same time as it would take me to drop around 30-40 diamond plated double-loaded static bomber ships onto the board. I think I'll stick to believing RIS ships are over priced trash.

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Re: Shield Strength too strong or bug?

#44 Post by wobbly »

Daybreak wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 11:47 am Fighters -
Would you agree or argue against the fact that in most cases early game it makes a lot of sense to just have big stacks of cheap carriers with fighters, like you and for that matter everyone are currently building? Very cheap to build, and ignores shields.
So would you agree or not? I ask you just to answer that question.


I believe that the current fighter situation is unbalanced, and I don't think just making shields cheaper is the answer. But I am not going to engage in the rest of your conversation about it, until I put it down on paper. You will have your chance to disparage me all over again then.
I actually prefer direct fire. Your scout ran into my main fleet last turn and I'll save you the bother of counting, there were more plasma cannons then carriers there. Direct Fire is simple, solid and reliable.

I like that gunships have extra fuel and don't get caught out of supply, like LRs carriers did when he tried to invade with carriers.
I like that gunships can take down planet defenses. I've seen both you and Oberlus try to blockade outposts with pure carrier fleets this game.
I like that gunships can't be countered with point defense. Yes they can be countered with shields, but shields are expensive and generally unreliable. Flak guns and interceptors are cheap. Gunships are solid and simple.

For pure raw damage/cost I'll use bombers, particularly in defense where fuel doesn't matter, but if I'm attacking, fast gunships with plenty of fuel every time.

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Re: Shield Strength too strong or bug?

#45 Post by Daybreak »

wobbly wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 7:30 pm I like that gunships can take down planet defenses. I've seen both you and Oberlus try to blockade outposts with pure carrier fleets this game.
Not me - maybe someone else

I like direct weapons as well.

However for the one shot fighters normally get, they are quite powerful, and a stack can do a lot damage.

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