Shield Strength too strong or bug?

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Daybreak
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Re: Shield Strength too strong or bug?

#16 Post by Daybreak »

you guys keep talking about counters to RIS - I look at it differently, and I am not sure if I can explain it.

First of all ignore counters, because counters are for any shield, and it does not matter what shield that is. You cant keep saying RIS is easily countered because all shields are easily countered

When it comes to fighters, shields are ignored, so -
20 Robotic with RIS is no better than 20 Robotic with Deflector shield
5 Robotics with Black Shield are not better than 5 Robotics with RIS

Now once you get that, it comes down to shield vs Shield

Answer these questions - if you were not robotic, how many ships would you build -
1) If you had researched Defence Grid
Your answer would probably not that many, because as you build, your tech overtakes the reaosn to use Defence grid

2) If you had researched Deflector Shield
Again Your answer would probably not that many, because as you build, your tech overtakes the reaosn to use Deflector Shield

3) If you had researched Plasma Shield
Again Your answer would change, but only because now you may be building different size ships, but you would have more based on the size of your empire at this time

But with RIS, it makes sense to build more as the limit to shield strength is quite high, compounding as you go. You dont have to worry about the cost and time, as your shield strength will adance as you build more of thme.


Anyway as I said I see it differently, and not too sure If I am explaining it to you that well.

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Oberlus
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Re: Shield Strength too strong or bug?

#17 Post by Oberlus »

If you ignore counters, then you ignore the whole game balance.

I not only talked about counters (that must be taken into account when you plan to change things), I also talked about the advantages of the regular shields compared to RIS, but you completely dismiss those arguments, do not even comment on them.
20 Robotic with RIS is no better than 20 Robotic with Deflector shield
False. 20 Robotic with deflector are better against carriers than 20 RIS because they are cheaper.

Down to shield vs shield: let's make the other shields cheaper (I already suggested that, you didn't like it), and faster to research (this is new).
But do not nerf the RIS strength because it has severe restrictions (hull, species, fleet together, expensive to get to good numbers, vulnerable to attrition) that makes it hard to pull out.
Daybreak wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 11:28 am if you were not robotic, how many ships would you build -
1) If you had researched Defence Grid
Your answer would probably not that many, because as you build, your tech overtakes the reaosn to use Defence grid
The answer is none. Defense grid is useless except against arc disruptors, and I saw no enemies abusing those.
2) If you had researched Deflector Shield
Again Your answer would probably not that many, because as you build, your tech overtakes the reaosn to use Deflector Shield
No, again the answer is none. I already answered this several times in the thread, BTW: I prefer the internal slot of the robo hull for fuel or hangar, and symbiotics are two small to install a shield (not enough structure to get a real benefit from the cost of the shield).
3) If you had researched Plasma Shield
Again Your answer would change, but only because now you may be building different size ships, but you would have more based on the size of your empire at this time
No. None, except maybe for self-grav or titan hulls, if my enemies have stacks of laser/plasma guns and not too many fighters. In this game, there are too many fighters everywhere (because they are OP, and you have to consider that, all the fruits are in the same market).

But with RIS, it makes sense to build more as the limit to shield strength is quite high, compounding as you go. You dont have to worry about the cost and time, as your shield strength will adance as you build more of thme.
Wrong, you do have to consider the cost, because once the enemies see you are doing RIS, they will abuse fighters and the RIS build will be inneficient. That's the part you seem to miss.

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Re: Shield Strength too strong or bug?

#18 Post by Oberlus »

In current game, I see myself surrounded by two enemies, I can't split the RIS fleet, so I'm building a second fleet. Will I make it RIS? No way. Will I make it regular shields? No reason, enemies are fighters. So I'll build carriers. Despite the RIS being so OP etc. And in doing so, I'm making it harder to reach the RIS strength cap. I don't think I'll reach black shield level in this game, if not all my RIS ships are dead before 30 turns.

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Re: Shield Strength too strong or bug?

#19 Post by wobbly »

I might build deflectors or defense grids if my scouts saw the enemy using a lot of direct fire weapons, but more likely I'd just build more cheaper ships. I'd definitely use plasma shields on a scattered asteroid hull, its a fraction of the cost of the whole ship for a start.

The cost for 20x RIS parts is greater then the cost of 7 colonies, complete with hull and outpost cost added in. I'd save my production, have more colonies and the ability to build more ships. Especially early game, where the part alone is more then a turn's production.

Daybreak
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Re: Shield Strength too strong or bug?

#20 Post by Daybreak »

Oberlus wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 1:29 pm In current game, I see myself surrounded by two enemies, I can't split the RIS fleet, so I'm building a second fleet. Will I make it RIS? No way. Will I make it regular shields? No reason, enemies are fighters. So I'll build carriers. Despite the RIS being so OP etc. And in doing so, I'm making it harder to reach the RIS strength cap. I don't think I'll reach black shield level in this game, if not all my RIS ships are dead before 30 turns.
YES, but that is because RIS is for early game use, just like deflector shield. My problem is how high that can be for such cheap rp and pp

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Oberlus
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Re: Shield Strength too strong or bug?

#21 Post by Oberlus »

Daybreak wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:41 pm
Oberlus wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 1:29 pm In current game, I see myself surrounded by two enemies, I can't split the RIS fleet, so I'm building a second fleet. Will I make it RIS? No way. Will I make it regular shields? No reason, enemies are fighters. So I'll build carriers. Despite the RIS being so OP etc. And in doing so, I'm making it harder to reach the RIS strength cap. I don't think I'll reach black shield level in this game, if not all my RIS ships are dead before 30 turns.
YES, but that is because RIS is for early game use, just like deflector shield. My problem is how high that can be for such cheap rp and pp
I see a contradiction with your previous post:
Daybreak wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 11:28 am with RIS, it makes sense to build more as the limit to shield strength is quite high, compounding as you go. You dont have to worry about the cost and time, as your shield strength will advance as you build more of them.
You say there is no problem on building more and more RIS (that means at least mid game) and that RIS is for early game. But you can't get high shields early game because they are so expensive (it is impossible).
Plus deflector shield is not for early game, you need as much RP to get them as to get plama cannons. That is mid game.


I think I said all my arguments, including some numbers from actual playtesting. Nothing else to add.

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LienRag
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Re: Shield Strength too strong or bug?

#22 Post by LienRag »

Daybreak wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:41 pm My problem is how high that can be for such cheap rp and pp
RIS is indeed cheap rp but certainly not cheap pp.
So it's basically a choice.

The fact that Molecular Clouds do not anymore remove all shields is an important unbalance problem though, that would be the thing to be changed : as pointed Oberlus, going RIS means having mostly one big fleet, while going Deflector/Black allows to split one's ships.
So if Molecular Clouds are removing all shields as they were designed, going RIS opens one big weakness that the opponent may seize.

The other balance problem is that stacking all one's ships into a single fleet (so, the antithesis of strategy) is way too often a viable way to victory, and that certainly advantages RIS.

I have ideas about how to solve that point, but they'll have to wait until my Godot skills improve.

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Re: Shield Strength too strong or bug?

#23 Post by Daybreak »

LienRag wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 7:08 pm The fact that Molecular Clouds do not anymore remove all shields
What? I did not know that. what is the change, or do you mean RIS shields will still have leftover shields after 90 is removed by clouds?
Pedia wrote: Molecular Clouds
Diffuse cloud of complex molecules that disrupts ship shielding. All ships have their Shields decreased by 15.
needs updating as it should be 90, ie 15*6

The fighters are op, so the game is unbalanced in that direction as well, as shields are bypassed, which in real terms does not really make much sense, and means having shields does not make sense in early/mid game overall.

I would think that Fighters have to attack though shields, just like energy weapons.
However -
1st round Shields at full strength
2nd round Shields at 2/3rd's strength, and fighters get to attack
3rd round Shields at 1/3rd strength, and fighters get to attack if not destroyed or part of a secondary drop.
4th round Shields at 0 strength, and fighters get to attack if not destroyed or part of a third drop.

OR

1st round Shields at full strength
2nd round Shields at 60% strength, and fighters get to attack
3rd round Shields at 20% strength, and fighters get to attack if not destroyed or part of a secondary drop.
4th round Shields at 0% strength, and fighters get to attack if not destroyed or part of a third drop.

whatever % that starts to balance out fighters and shields.

This makes more sense, than fighters being able to penerate shields before attacking, and unbalancing the game.

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Re: Shield Strength too strong or bug?

#24 Post by Oberlus »

Daybreak wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 12:17 am
LienRag wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 7:08 pm The fact that Molecular Clouds do not anymore remove all shields
What? I did not know that. what is the change, or do you mean RIS shields will still have leftover shields after 90 is removed by clouds?
There were no changes in molecular cloud. They remove 15*factor=90.
The fighters are op
No.

Shields remove some or all damage from guns shots.
Point Defense (flaks/interceptors/strikers) reduce number of shots from fighters.

With enough PD, the damage taken from fighters is 33% of maximum, because they only shoot once then die.
With black shields, the damage taken from a maxed out death reay (180) is reduced to 50%, or to 33% if ultimate pilots.

So each way of attacking has its counter, and there is no particular build that is OP against all other builds.

This is as if we were playing Starcraft and someone going full zealots complains about mutalisks being OP: the answers is not "change the game" but "build some phoenix".

Plujs fighters out of supply don't refill.

I see no reason to change anything, just to balance total damage over total cost of the offensive and defensive ship parts.
LienRag wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 7:08 pm The other balance problem is that stacking all one's ships into a single fleet (so, the antithesis of strategy) is way too often a viable way to victory, and that certainly advantages RIS.
Stacking can't be at the same time a disadvantage and an advantage. It's just a disadvantage that RIS can't stay strong while divided and other ship builds doesn't have that problem.

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Re: Shield Strength too strong or bug?

#25 Post by LienRag »

Daybreak wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 12:17 am 1st round Shields at full strength
2nd round Shields at 60% strength, and fighters get to attack
3rd round Shields at 20% strength, and fighters get to attack if not destroyed or part of a secondary drop.
4th round Shields at 0% strength, and fighters get to attack if not destroyed or part of a third drop.

whatever % that starts to balance out fighters and shields.
I'm not sure that I understand you correctly, but there would be some sense in having fighters getting more dangerous when surviving a few turns (so not getting under the shields immediately).

Anyway I'm getting a bit more confident in my ability to propose a new (and way better) combat system in a few months (end of august if I'm very optimistic) and fighters are one thing that would change a lot (not entirely sure as of now of how exactly - I have the general idea but balancing it will probably require a lot of work).

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Re: Shield Strength too strong or bug?

#26 Post by LienRag »

Oberlus wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 4:58 am There were no changes in molecular cloud. They remove 15*factor=90.
I didn't check the current value I confess, but from memory I saw (first time I played) Molecular Clouds remove all shields, then a few versions later remove 3 (I think ?) of the initial shield values (without the x6 factor).

Oberlus wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 4:58 am Stacking can't be at the same time a disadvantage and an advantage. It's just a disadvantage that RIS can't stay strong while divided and other ship builds doesn't have that problem.
It is certainly a disadvantage that RIS can't stay strong while divided.
This disadvantage is mostly theoretical though since once your enemy has a big stack, you very often need to keep your own ships in a big stack too.
Fleet Unstealthiness is a very good innovation that helps to limit this problem, but only for people using the Stealth strategy, which isn't really viable against human players as of now.

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Re: Shield Strength too strong or bug?

#27 Post by Oberlus »

LienRag wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 8:27 pm
Oberlus wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 4:58 am There were no changes in molecular cloud. They remove 15*factor=90.
I didn't check the current value I confess, but from memory I saw (first time I played) Molecular Clouds remove all shields, then a few versions later remove 3 (I think ?) of the initial shield values (without the x6 factor).
No. It was always 15 (*factor), which is equal to removing all strength of up to a black shield, letting huge stacks of RIS keep some strenght.

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Re: Shield Strength too strong or bug?

#28 Post by Daybreak »

Clarification -
Oberlus wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 4:58 am Shields remove some or all damage from guns shots.
Yes and stay full power until ship is destroyed, unlike planet shields,, which led to easiest solution of changing planet shields to a new name.

So much contrary mechanics in this game.
Oberlus wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 4:58 am Point Defense (flaks/interceptors/strikers) reduce number of shots from fighters.

With enough PD, the damage taken from fighters is 33% of maximum, because they only shoot once then die.
1) From everything I have read previously, fighters/bombers all fight inside the shields. is that correct or not?

2) PD -
a) are you saying that PD reduces the damage. I allways thought that the fighter gets off their shot 100%of their power, and will die afterwards if there is enough PD (flaks/interceptors/strikers). what you are saying is that PD reduces the fire power of the fighters in some way - how?

b) OR are you saying they fire 100%, but only once because they die and that means they dont get to fire twice more, so they only get to fire 33% of the total rounds?

c) OR are you saying their total fire power is proportioned over the 3 rounds they would fire so only 33% of total fire power is used each round.


Oberlus wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 4:58 am I see no reason to change anything, just to balance total damage over total cost of the offensive and defensive ship parts.
You yourself somewhere in another post was discussing with Wobbly how you felt shields had a problem, and need fixing.

and isn't this FO alpha, and all ideas should be looked at.
LienRag wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 8:20 pm
Daybreak wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 12:17 am 1st round Shields at full strength
2nd round Shields at 60% strength, and fighters get to attack
3rd round Shields at 20% strength, and fighters get to attack if not destroyed or part of a secondary drop.
4th round Shields at 0% strength, and fighters get to attack if not destroyed or part of a third drop.

whatever % that starts to balance out fighters and shields.
I'm not sure that I understand you correctly, but there would be some sense in having fighters getting more dangerous when surviving a few turns (so not getting under the shields immediately).
This suggestion, goes a long way to fixing all the contrary mechanics, currently going on, where there is a difference in ship shields to planetary shields, and somehow fighters are magically transported inside shields.

I am not going to profess if my percentages are right or wrong, and it would take somsone with better mathamatical skills than me to find the exact tradeoff.
LienRag wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 8:20 pm I'm not sure that I understand you correctly, but there would be some sense in having fighters getting more dangerous when surviving a few turns (so not getting under the shields immediately).
Not more dangerous themselves because they survived, but as shield strength decreases, more able to do damage. Even newly launched fighters would have the same advantage.

And if you ever read any sci fi books that is how every space battle is depicted, Shields must be reduced to zero to get past and do damge, however the current mechanics of spillover of fire power also get past the shields is ok too.

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Re: Shield Strength too strong or bug?

#29 Post by Oberlus »

There is too much confusion here that I wasn't aware. Let's start from the basics.


Realism is not a design principle in FO. The "counterintuitive" behaviour of planet shields (now or soon-to-be renamed so no longer a contradiction) compared to ship shields is irrelevant compared to the gameplay of it (explained by Vezzra somewhere else). Gameplay is always more important than realism. So, it is irrelevant that some (like you or I) find counterintuitive that fighters can magically ignore shields. The point is to have a better gameplay, and that is achieved by having different kinds of offensive and defensive parts to allow diverse strategies. Now let's see how FO achieves this:


Combats have four rounds (bouts).

Ships have two main forms of offense: Guns (actually "direct damage weapons", but I prefer "guns" for shorter) and Fighters.
- Guns shoot from bout one, so they can shoot four times per combat (less if the ship is destroyed before bout 4).
- Fighters are launched on fist bout (if enough launch bay capacity) and shoot from bout 2, so they can shoot three times per combat (less if they are destroyed before bout 4). A fighter that survives until the last bout will shoot in total 3 times (bouts 2-4), doing 100% of its maximum damage per combat.

Ships have two types of defense: Shields and Point Defense (PD).
- Shields subtract a fixed amount of damage from each gun shot. If the shield strength is high enough, gun shot will do no damage at all.
- PD kill fighters, and dead fighters no longer shoot. There are several weapons that work as PD: Flak Cannon (only useful against fighters), Arc Disruptos (also shoots at ships), Interceptors (PD that also works as meatshield for offensive fighters), Strikers (PD that also works as offensive fighters).


A fleet of carriers fighting against a fleet of ships with zero PD will inflict the maximum damage from their fighters (100%).
But fighting against a fleet full of PD will make all the fighters die in bout 2 (after their first shot), so in total they will do 33.3% of their maximum damage per combat.

A fleet of gunners fighting against a fleet of ships with zero shields will inflict maximum damage of their guns.
But fighting against ships with shields, the guns will do only a percentage of the shot damage. Some numbers (using the base values, without the x6 factor):
- Mass Driver 1 (3 damage per shot) vs Defense Grid (3 shield strength) -> 0% of damage.
- Mass Driver 4 (6) vs Defense Grid (3) -> 50%
- Laser 4 (11) vs Defense Grid (3) -> 72.7%
- Laser 4 (11) vs Deflector (5) -> 54.5%
- Laser 4 (11) vs Plasma Shield (9) -> 18.2%
- Death Ray 4 (30) vs Black Shield (15) -> 50%
- Death Ray 4 with great pilots (45) vs Black Shield (15) -> 66%
- Death Ray 4 with great pilots (45) vs maxed out RIS (20) -> 55.6%

[Edit: in general, refined weapons vs shields of same "level" (MD vs Defense Grid, Laser vs Deflector...) do 50% of their damage, or 66% with ultimate pilots.]

One shield works against all weapons fired at it (that is, you don't need more shields per ship if there are more enemies), while PD needs to be dimensionated to the amount of fighters in the enemy fleet (that is: more enemy fighters need more flak guns).
This makes it "natural" for balance that shields are relatively expensive in comparison to guns, and also in comparison to fighters and PD.


Summing up, when building your fleet(s), you can decide to defend against guns and/or against shields, sacrificing for that some armor and/or weaponry (e.g. a shield takes up an hangar and a flak takes up an armor or weapon part) and probably rising up the cost of the ship design (so that you will have less ships for the same PP), which is specifically the case for shields, they are expensive.
Or you could not defend against any of those and focus on dealing more damage. Four general strategies then:
- Defended against everything but deal less damage (and be at a disadvantage fighting vs an enemy that doesn't use one of the weapons you are defended against, because you invested on a defense that is now expensive dead weight in your ships).
- Defend against guns (and be at a disadvantage against fighter-focused enemies, because you invested on a defense that is now expensive dead weight in your ships, plus you didn't invest in the defense that would be good here).
- Defend against fighters (and be at a disadvantage against gun-focused enemies, because you invested on a defense that is now expensive dead weight in your ships, plus you didn't invest in the defense that would be good here).
- Not defend against anything and have maximum firepower and/or armor.

And this is to be combined with using both offensive weapon classes or only one.
If your enemy knows you won't use fighters, then your enemy can optimize their ship designs against you, ignoring PD.
If your enemy knows you have massive PD defense and not much shields, then your enemy can optimize their ship designs against you, neglecting offensive fighters and focusing on guns.
Etc.


The "solutions" suggested by Daybreak or LienRag are, IMO, from what I understand about all these mechanics and their balance, bad ideas that would complicate the understanding of how combats work (shield strength that varies during combat... yikes!) and would not fix any balance issue.

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Re: Shield Strength too strong or bug?

#30 Post by Oberlus »

Daybreak wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 11:31 pmYou yourself somewhere in another post was discussing with Wobbly how you felt shields had a problem, and need fixing.
Yes, a problem of not being competitive (unless the enemy does something wrong) and that's why I was suggesting to make them cheaper and faster to research.

But that has nothing to do with what you are asking for here: nerf robotic shields. I mean, you are asking for the opposite of what I and Wobbly were saying: that shields need a boost.
So I don't see the point on mentioning this here.


and isn't this FO alpha, and all ideas should be looked at.
I am looking at your ideas, and deeming them as bad ideas (I can be wrong, of course). It is not that I am ignoring your ideas, or not taking the time to explain why I think how I think.
So again, I don't see the point of mentioning this here.

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