Targeting Order

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Daybreak
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Targeting Order

#1 Post by Daybreak »

I searched in Pedia and forum, but could not find the answers.
I did find this
https://www.freeorion.org/forum/viewtop ... 12#p108451
and this
https://www.freeorion.org/forum/viewtop ... 409#p93391

But not what has been or not been implemented.
I hope its the weighted one suggested by Ophiuchus, or something similar - I like that one. It does not make much sense to target interceptors which may no longer do any further damage.

So

Interceptors - target fighters only
Flak Cannon/Spatial Flux - target fighters only
Bombers - target Ships Only

Questions
Strike Fighters - Target Ships and Fighters - Do they target fighters first and ships later, or is it random or weighted?
Heavy Bombers - Target Ships and Planets - Do they target ships first and planets later, or is it random or weighted?
Energy Weapons/Gun - Target Ships, Fighters, and Planets - Do they target ships first, fighters 2nd and planets later, or is it random or weighted?

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Oberlus
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Re: Targeting Order

#2 Post by Oberlus »

Spatial flux targets ships too.

Guns don't target fighters.

"Weighted" is a form of random. But it's not used. Target is choosen with uniform probability among valid targets. So if there are 2 fighters and 1 ship, there is a 33% chance of a striker hitting the ship.

There is no order of targetting, just the above mechanic, uniform probability among valid targets.

Daybreak
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Re: Targeting Order

#3 Post by Daybreak »

Thanks Oberlus

So for targeting we get this - plus expanded.
Wobbly I know you are making changes to the Pedia, and ask if this can be included in those changes. Any Underlined item is meant to link back to another pedia page.


Battles and Targeting {available from main menu Pedia}

Battles

Note: The term Fighters means both fighters and bombers.

When battle occurs, each battle in a turn is made up of 4 rounds, or the number of rounds as set by a game administrator. {as number of rounds can be changed, not sure if the number can be linked to that variable}
Round 1: Direct Weapons (Except Short Range Weapons) on ships can fire this round, and following rounds unless the ship is destroyed in any preceding round. Fighters (and Bombers) launch, but can not be targeted until second round.
Round 2: Fighters can fire this round, and following rounds unless destroyed in any preceding round.
Round 3: Short Range Weapons on ships can fire this round, and following rounds unless the ship was destroyed in any preceding round.
Round 4: Any ships, or fighters that survived previous rounds can fire this round, and if the round number has been increased by a game administrator any following rounds unless destroyed in any preceding round.


Fighters

Interceptor: Targets fighters and bombers. {links to Interceptor hangar}
Strike Fighter: Targets ships, fighters, and bombers. {links to Strike Fighter hangar}
Bomber: Targets ships. {links to Bomber hangar}
Heavy Bomber: Targets ships, and planets. {links to Heavy Bomber hangar}

Technology required: Fighters and Launch Bays, Laser Fighters, Plasma Fighters, and Death Ray Fighters.
Notes:
1) All fighters and bombers already built will upgrade to next level of tech when researched. For example, Laser fighters and bombers will upgrade (next turn) to Plasma fighters and bombers, once Plasma Fighters has been researched.
2) Fighter technology is separate and does not relate to direct weapon upgrades. For example researching laser 2, will not increase the firepower of your laser fighters, and it is possible to have researched Plasma Fighters but have only researched Laser weapons for your ships.


Ship Direct Weapons

Short Range Weapons
Spatial Flux Lance: Targets ships, fighters, and bombers.

Longer Range Weapons
Flak Cannon: Targets fighters and bombers.
Arc Disruptor: Targets ships, fighters, and bombers.
Mass Driver, Laser Weapon, Plasma Cannons, Death Ray, & Spinal Antimatter Cannon: Targets ships and planets.

Technology required: See Direct Weapons

Upgrades: Arc Disruptor, Mass Driver, Laser Weapon, Plasma Cannons, & Death Ray, after being researched can be upgraded to increase their firepower.

wobbly
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Re: Targeting Order

#4 Post by wobbly »

Thanks I'll edit that a bit and put in a pull request. For instance I'll link the game rule for the number of combat rounds.

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Oberlus
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Re: Targeting Order

#5 Post by Oberlus »

Keep in mind that the differentiation "fighter and bombers" makes no sense.
Daybreak wrote: Tue Jul 12, 2022 10:59 pm The term Fighters means both fighters and bombers.
The term Fighters means interceptors, strike fighters, bombers, and heavy bombers.
Daybreak wrote: Tue Jul 12, 2022 10:59 pm Round 2: Fighters can fire this round
No, fighters can shoot the round after they have been launched, which is not necessarily round 2.
Daybreak wrote: Tue Jul 12, 2022 10:59 pm Round 3: Short Range Weapons
All direct damage weapons, "guns", are already defined as short range (inherited from long ago, currently wrong since they are the longest range available)
All that would need some work to pick the right terms before jumping to make a definitive documentation.
Daybreak wrote: Tue Jul 12, 2022 10:59 pm Interceptor: Targets fighters and bombers.
Targets fighters.
And same correction for the other references to "fighters and bombers".

wobbly
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Re: Targeting Order

#6 Post by wobbly »

Oberlus wrote: Wed Jul 13, 2022 8:20 am Keep in mind that the differentiation "fighter and bombers" makes no sense.
Daybreak wrote: Tue Jul 12, 2022 10:59 pm The term Fighters means both fighters and bombers.
The term Fighters means interceptors, strike fighters, bombers, and heavy bombers.
Daybreak wrote: Tue Jul 12, 2022 10:59 pm Round 2: Fighters can fire this round
No, fighters can shoot the round after they have been launched, which is not necessarily round 2.
Daybreak wrote: Tue Jul 12, 2022 10:59 pm Round 3: Short Range Weapons
All direct damage weapons, "guns", are already defined as short range (inherited from long ago, currently wrong since they are the longest range available)
All that would need some work to pick the right terms before jumping to make a definitive documentation.
Daybreak wrote: Tue Jul 12, 2022 10:59 pm Interceptor: Targets fighters and bombers.
Targets fighters.
And same correction for the other references to "fighters and bombers".
I'm not likely to do anything about it till the weekend and then I'll put it up in draft form, so there'll be time to hash out some of the details.

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Re: Targeting Order

#7 Post by Ophiuchus »

Oberlus wrote: Wed Jul 13, 2022 8:20 am
Daybreak wrote: Tue Jul 12, 2022 10:59 pm Round 3: Short Range Weapons
All direct damage weapons, "guns", are already defined as short range (inherited from long ago, currently wrong since they are the longest range available)
All that would need some work to pick the right terms before jumping to make a definitive documentation.
What daybreak calls here short range weapons should be described as close range weapons or close range direct weapons.

While the internal term is currently short range weapons, we should call the weapons which are able to shoot from bout 1 on long range (direct) weapons.

Short range direct weapons are intended to shoot starting from bout 2 (but we dont have any of those).

And then there are nuances with some weapons.. the monster weapons often work different (e.g. the snow flake laser is able to target fighters, there are bursts in bout 2 taking down a lot of fighters), all the fighters are "special", the flux lance can attack from bout 2 when "charging" (maybe that will become the norm for close range weapons, if i remember correctly some of the monster close range weapons also do this).

Also it always can shoot down fighters in bout 2 (fluffwise those are already close range, inside shields)
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

Look, ma... four combat bouts!

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Re: Targeting Order

#8 Post by Daybreak »

Thanks everyone - it will be good to have something on one page in the pedia to explain it all for new people.

Also I see a lot of people using bouts or rounds in the forum instead of rounds, which seems to be used in the pedia. Should there be a consensus to change it to bouts?

Ophiuchus wrote: Wed Jul 13, 2022 11:38 am Also it always can shoot down fighters in bout 2 (fluffwise those are already close range, inside shields)
Thanks Ophiuchus - that's something new I did not know
Ophiuchus wrote: Wed Jul 13, 2022 11:38 am the flux lance can attack from bout 2 when "charging" (maybe that will become the norm for close range weapons).
I did not understand what you meant by that.

Ophiuchus wrote: Wed Jul 13, 2022 11:38 am The monster weapons often work different (e.g. the snow flake laser is able to target fighters, there are bursts in bout 2 taking down a lot of fighters), all the fighters are "special", the flux lance can attack from bout 2 when "charging" (maybe that will become the norm for close range weapons, if i remember correctly some of the monster close range weapons also do this).
The pedia's information on monsters needs doing as well - there iks nothing on what weapons they carry.

fotmfb22
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Re: Targeting Order

#9 Post by fotmfb22 »

Would it be correct(ish) to think of the advantage of the lighter fighter types over bombers is that they can be much more numerous once deployed, and therefore soak up more battle damage? Heavy Bombers seem to do more damage to enemy ships in my logs than Strike Fighters do. Probably even moreso once enemy ships start using shields. But maybe it's still worth building Strike Fighter carriers, so that random targeting is more likely to waste shots on those, rather than anything more valuable?

Also, I haven't researched this in the combat logs, but maybe it is more likely that some of them will survive into later rounds of combat due to their greater numbers.

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LienRag
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Re: Targeting Order

#10 Post by LienRag »

Exactly.

Daybreak
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Re: Targeting Order

#11 Post by Daybreak »

fotmfb22 wrote: Sun Jul 17, 2022 7:32 pm Would it be correct(ish) to think of the advantage of the lighter fighter types over bombers is that they can be much more numerous once deployed, and therefore soak up more battle damage? Heavy Bombers seem to do more damage to enemy ships in my logs than Strike Fighters do. Probably even moreso once enemy ships start using shields. But maybe it's still worth building Strike Fighter carriers, so that random targeting is more likely to waste shots on those, rather than anything more valuable?

Also, I haven't researched this in the combat logs, but maybe it is more likely that some of them will survive into later rounds of combat due to their greater numbers.
I am seeing this in latest test game - interceptors used as spam, to defeat bombers and also to soak up Strikes firepower and any fighter targeting guns - although at first you only get 3 interceptors, with further research that expands to 6, which are all launched in second round. So basically you need some as spam yourself.

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Re: Targeting Order

#12 Post by Ophiuchus »

The observed behaviour of fighters is as designed. So if people find use for the different fighter types I am pretty happy :)

One note, without any skill or policy boost, 1 heavy bomber, 2 bombers, or 3 strikers all do the same damage. The heavier versions need fewer launch bays; the lighter ones do profit more from skill/policy (because each fighter gets the same boost; so the more the merrier)
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

Look, ma... four combat bouts!

Daybreak
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Re: Targeting Order

#13 Post by Daybreak »

So I forgot Planets, and someone else can add monsters later

Battles and Targeting {available from main menu Pedia}

Battles

Note: The term Fighters means Interceptors, Fighters, Bombers, and Heavy Bombers.

When battle occurs, each battle in a turn is made up of 4 rounds, or the number of rounds as set by a game administrator. {as number of rounds can be changed, not sure if the number can be linked to that variable}

Round 1:
  • Long Range Weapons on ships can fire this round, and following rounds unless the ship is destroyed in any preceding round.
  • Short Range Weapons - there are none at this time
  • Close Range Weapons Can not fire this round
  • Fighters launch, but can not be targeted until second round.
  • Planets can fire this round and following rounds, until their Shield is reduced to zero, and weapons can therefore be attacked. Once weapons are reduced to zero, the planet is incapacitated. If Defense Network Regeneration has been researched, regeneration of planetary weapons does not occur during rounds, only each turn.
Round 2:
  • Close Range Weapons, that can target fighters can fire this round targeting fighters that were launched in a previous round only, and following rounds unless the ship is destroyed in any preceding round.
  • Fighters launched ina previous round can fire this round, and following rounds unless destroyed in any preceding round.
  • Fighters that are launched in Round 2, can not fire or be targeted until Third Round round.
Round 3:
  • Close Range Weapons, that can target ships can fire this round targeting ships (and fighters if they have that ability), and following rounds unless the ship is destroyed in any preceding round.
  • Fighters launched ina previous round can fire this round, and following rounds unless destroyed in any preceding round.
  • Fighters that are launched in Round 3, can not fire or be targeted until Fourth Round round.
Round 4:
  • Any ships, fighters, Planetary weapons that survived previous rounds can fire this round, and if the round number has been increased by a game administrator any following rounds unless destroyed in any preceding round.
  • Any Fighters that are launched in the last round, will not fire or be targeted.

System Defense Mines if researched do not appear as a value within the gui and do not appear in the combat logs. Details of Damage and ships destroyed, if any, is shown in the Situation Report. Mines regenerate fully each turn.



Fighters

Interceptor: Targets fighters and bombers. {links to Interceptor hangar}
Strike Fighter: Targets ships, fighters, and bombers. {links to Strike Fighter hangar}
Bomber: Targets ships. {links to Bomber hangar}
Heavy Bomber: Targets ships, and planets. {links to Heavy Bomber hangar}

Technology required: Fighters and Launch Bays, Laser Fighters, Plasma Fighters, and Death Ray Fighters.
Notes:
1) All fighters already built will upgrade to next level of tech when researched. For example, Laser fighters will upgrade (next turn) to Plasma fighters, once Plasma Fighters has been researched.
2) Fighter technology is separate and does not relate to direct weapon upgrades. For example researching laser 2, will not increase the firepower of your laser fighters, and it is possible to have researched Plasma Fighters but have only researched Laser weapons for your ships.


Ship Direct Weapons

Short Range Weapons
Spatial Flux Lance: Targets ships, ans fighters.

Longer Range Weapons
Flak Cannon: Targets fighters.
Arc Disruptor: Targets ships, and fighters.
Mass Driver, Laser Weapon, Plasma Cannons, Death Ray, & Spinal Antimatter Cannon: Targets ships and planets.

Technology required: See Direct Weapons

Upgrades: Arc Disruptor, Mass Driver, Laser Weapon, Plasma Cannons, & Death Ray, after being researched can be upgraded to increase their firepower

Ophiuchus
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Re: Targeting Order

#14 Post by Ophiuchus »

I think we should rename Laser Fighters etc. tech simply to Fighters 2, as is done for the other parts (Arc Disruptors, Mass Drivers, ...).

So the rule would be: Different parts necessary -> Different tech name, Upgrades for same part -> Same tech name

PR-3989
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

Look, ma... four combat bouts!

Daybreak
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Re: Targeting Order

#15 Post by Daybreak »

Ophiuchus wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 8:56 am I think we should rename Laser Fighters etc. tech simply to Fighters 2, as is done for the other parts (Arc Disruptors, Mass Drivers, ...).

So the rule would be: Different parts necessary -> Different tech name, Upgrades for same part -> Same tech name

PR-3989
Would that not make it more confusing, and should it not be Fighters 1?
You would have Fighters 1 for Laser, Fighters 2 for plasma, Fighters 3, for death ray, but if you were new you would have to go and look at Pedia to understand that.
Why not change tech to
Laser upgrade for Fighters
Plasma upgrade for Fighters
Death Ray upgrade for Fighters

After writing this, I believe that what you meant there would be no reference to laser, plasma, or death ray, Fighters would just be upgraded and have more power.

I would prefer we had some fighter only weapon with a name - it just sounds better like Graser, Nova Cannon, Gamma Ray, Fusion Gun, Meson Ray, Phase cannon, or Particle Beam 1, 2 and 3

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