Fixing Influence - any ideas welcome
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Fixing Influence - any ideas welcome
I believe that influence is now one of the biggest problems in FO.
Look at MP20
Oberlus very quickly found some Kobunture. A good find early on that launched him into the lead with its good influence and great Production.
Later I found Detheren, that made all the difference, as I was struggling even with George's normal influence.
Wobbly has some Tae Ghirus, which is starting to allow him to expand his production. Not sure how many he had
Lienrag - normal influence which he has struggled with for some time (even with 1 Happy Birthday base), but also a xenophobic race.
Endhu - with very bad influence, and no local natives, put him behind in the race as well.
o01eg - with bad influence, although o01leg is playing the single race path, whch we know needs addressing in policies etc, just as much as there is also a discussion on fixing xenophobic races.
The point is, if you start with good influence it gives you a huge advantage -policies are easier to come by, and more species/planets can be set to PP or RP within your empire
I know you are changing some of these individual species to help with some of these problems, but I believe we need to make a much more fundamental change to Influence
Lets look at it overall
In MP20 I had
27 planets doing IP
17 doing PP
8 doing RP
4 doing growth
2 doing protection
That was very little growth in IP at all.
I believe that the current configuation of the game reqquires about 50% to 40% of your empire is required to produce IP, with the balance of 60-50% split between PP, IP, etc -
How ridiculous is that.
It stifles the whole game
All ideas welcome, but I would like to test dropping the cost of colony upkeep by 40% in the next MP game - I believe we would get something like this
19 planets doing IP
39 planets split between doing PP, RP, Growth, Protectione.
I realise there are many more variables, and my numbers are a little rough, but it would be great to test it in MP 21.
Look at MP20
Oberlus very quickly found some Kobunture. A good find early on that launched him into the lead with its good influence and great Production.
Later I found Detheren, that made all the difference, as I was struggling even with George's normal influence.
Wobbly has some Tae Ghirus, which is starting to allow him to expand his production. Not sure how many he had
Lienrag - normal influence which he has struggled with for some time (even with 1 Happy Birthday base), but also a xenophobic race.
Endhu - with very bad influence, and no local natives, put him behind in the race as well.
o01eg - with bad influence, although o01leg is playing the single race path, whch we know needs addressing in policies etc, just as much as there is also a discussion on fixing xenophobic races.
The point is, if you start with good influence it gives you a huge advantage -policies are easier to come by, and more species/planets can be set to PP or RP within your empire
I know you are changing some of these individual species to help with some of these problems, but I believe we need to make a much more fundamental change to Influence
Lets look at it overall
In MP20 I had
27 planets doing IP
17 doing PP
8 doing RP
4 doing growth
2 doing protection
That was very little growth in IP at all.
I believe that the current configuation of the game reqquires about 50% to 40% of your empire is required to produce IP, with the balance of 60-50% split between PP, IP, etc -
How ridiculous is that.
It stifles the whole game
All ideas welcome, but I would like to test dropping the cost of colony upkeep by 40% in the next MP game - I believe we would get something like this
19 planets doing IP
39 planets split between doing PP, RP, Growth, Protectione.
I realise there are many more variables, and my numbers are a little rough, but it would be great to test it in MP 21.
Re: Fixing Influence - any ideas welcome
Daybreak, I don't share most of your insights here.
That's not my definition of very quickly.
That was my fifth inhabited planet.
My influence never really launched. I'm used to get to the 300 IP econ policy quite early, and this time I couldn't. It's turn 200ish and I don't have it yet.
I wasn't really into the lead.
LienRag didn't struggle with influence (no one does it early game, influence upkeep is low then), he struggled with war against wobbly, who would also be much more developed had they both not fight each other that early.
Endhu and I shared species relatively early, can't find the sitrep for that, but not far from turn 50.
If that is the case, those percentages are for your policies and species an planets/outposts in the current turn of MP20.
That is as intended: the most powerful empire needs more colonies set to influence, to reduce the steamrolling effect.
If you meant game=current turn of MP20, I don't see the problem.
Invaded at turn 51.
That's not my definition of very quickly.
That was my fifth inhabited planet.
My influence never really launched. I'm used to get to the 300 IP econ policy quite early, and this time I couldn't. It's turn 200ish and I don't have it yet.
I wasn't really into the lead.
Later than turn 51? How much later?Later I found Detheren, that made all the difference, as I was struggling even with George's normal influence.
LienRag didn't struggle with influence (no one does it early game, influence upkeep is low then), he struggled with war against wobbly, who would also be much more developed had they both not fight each other that early.
Endhu and I shared species relatively early, can't find the sitrep for that, but not far from turn 50.
I assume you mean game=FO?I believe that the current configuation of the game reqquires about 50% to 40% of your empire is required to produce IP, with the balance of 60-50% split between PP, IP, etc -
How ridiculous is that.
If that is the case, those percentages are for your policies and species an planets/outposts in the current turn of MP20.
That is as intended: the most powerful empire needs more colonies set to influence, to reduce the steamrolling effect.
If you meant game=current turn of MP20, I don't see the problem.
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Re: Fixing Influence - any ideas welcome
Any problems LR had were mostly self caused. Too many outposts. Too many disconnections (ok maybe I caused that particular problem). Currently he has every colony disconnected from the capital on account of not having a capital. I can't speak for any of the others.
I'll give numbers for all good influence and above(Tae Ghris, Ugmor and Mu Ursh). 14 on influence out of 46 with +5 Influence
I'll give numbers for all good influence and above(Tae Ghris, Ugmor and Mu Ursh). 14 on influence out of 46 with +5 Influence
Re: Fixing Influence - any ideas welcome
Not sure with "self caused" but yes they resulted from choices I made (or had to make, depending on the interpretation) and in the test game I played before with Eaxaws I didn't have that much Influence problem.
But I believe that Racial Purity should have some Stability and Influence bonus for the capitol species, yes (stability bonus on all planets, not sure what Influence bonus exactly though).
And again, I insist that the Imperial Palace bonus should be raised, probably to +7.
Re: Fixing Influence - any ideas welcome
Interesting, care to elaborate ?Geoff the Medio wrote: ↑Sat Aug 06, 2022 1:12 pm I'd rather suggest adding bonuses with conditions that require specific play styles, rather than a general reduction in cost.
Re: Fixing Influence - any ideas welcome
Sounds like self caused to me.
Why? Why increase influence generation in the 1 part of the game where you are already swimming in IP.
Re: Fixing Influence - any ideas welcome
I would like to see the drop in cost as a test to prove the theory, that influence slows the game significantly, more than it should.Geoff the Medio wrote: ↑Sat Aug 06, 2022 1:12 pmI'd rather suggest adding bonuses with conditions that require specific play styles, rather than a general reduction in cost.
How it is ultimately implemented, can be as you said, or a combination of a drop in cost, bonuses, and play styles.
There are just so many variables in the game, a blanket change, like stability being increased by 5, can give us an idea of what we need or a direction.
- Geoff the Medio
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Re: Fixing Influence - any ideas welcome
There are various examples of policies and other content that give conditional bonuses. Diveristy depends on how many species are present. Centralization has a mix of bonuses and penalties that require connectivity and compactness. Isolation benefits spread out populated planets and penalizes close together ones. Interstellar Lighthouse penalizes stealth, which may matter or not, depending on strategy.LienRag wrote: ↑Sat Aug 06, 2022 2:21 pmInteresting, care to elaborate ?Geoff the Medio wrote: ↑Sat Aug 06, 2022 1:12 pm I'd rather suggest adding bonuses with conditions that require specific play styles, rather than a general reduction in cost.
Probably reasonable, especially if limited by some additional conditions, like not having any other species in the same system, and additional bonus if no other species are in the whole empire, though the latter might need some additional nuance or allowance to make it less annoying to temporarily control a planet while replacing its species.
Re: Fixing Influence - any ideas welcome
How Racial Purity should work if empire captured other capital planet?
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Re: Fixing Influence - any ideas welcome
Oh, that's what you meant !Geoff the Medio wrote: ↑Sat Aug 06, 2022 6:20 pm There are various examples of policies and other content that give conditional bonuses.
I concur then.
Actually yes, it could be interesting to have this bonus limited by the proximity of Natives or allied/enemy planets (of different species).Geoff the Medio wrote: ↑Sat Aug 06, 2022 6:20 pm especially if limited by some additional conditions, like not having any other species in the same system,
Species in the same Empire are impossible to have anyway with Racial Purity, the stability malus is too huge.
Re: Fixing Influence - any ideas welcome
AFAIK when you capture another capital planet it stops to be a capital planet...
You keep the cultural archive (well, usually not in MP, but still) and the Imperial Palace is destroyed.
And with Racial Purity as it works now you're more or less forced to remove the planet's population to replace it with your own anyhow.
Re: Fixing Influence - any ideas welcome
I agree that this would mean some adjustment to the costs of many Policies, as indeed it means "swimming in IP" at the beginning of the game.
Why then ? As I wrote the first time that I made this argument, because in early game there is no need to "prevent snowballing" nor to prevent "Colonize everything" patterns (lack of production already achieves that) and having to put some planets to Influence is just a chore, it achieves nothing in terms of game balance.
With such a buffed early IP production, one would need to care about influence only once in middle-game, where it is imho more relevant.
Re: Fixing Influence - any ideas welcome
Turn 51 is quick in this game.Oberlus wrote: ↑Sat Aug 06, 2022 11:27 amInvaded at turn 51.
That's not my definition of very quickly.
That was my fifth inhabited planet.
My influence never really launched. I'm used to get to the 300 IP econ policy quite early, and this time I couldn't. It's turn 200ish and I don't have it yet.
I wasn't really into the lead.
My influnece never launched either, and agree I normally get 300 IP econ policy early as well - I also dont have it either.
Thats what I am trying to say overall - influence needs to be adjusted.
Captured Detheren at turn 106
An etty for a replicon - for which an etty only has normal influence. It helps but building any colony takes ages due to the poor population growth. I look forward to seeing the change in the new versions.
Right now - you still have more fleet than I do, not matter how big my empire looks.Oberlus wrote: ↑Sat Aug 06, 2022 11:27 am If that is the case, those percentages are for your policies and species an planets/outposts in the current turn of MP20.
That is as intended: the most powerful empire needs more colonies set to influence, to reduce the steamrolling effect.
If you meant game=current turn of MP20, I don't see the problem.
The growth of an empire is very slow, compared to the immediate impact of influence.
Maybe that is another solution - fleet needs to have an influence cost as well, so the bigger your fleet the more influence you pay - I thought it already did, but I cant see it.
Yes early on there is plenty of influence, but early game you need it for policies.
Re: Fixing Influence - any ideas welcome
So you agree that normally you don't have influence problem, only this time.
That doesn't need adjustment.
What change?An etty for a replicon - for which an etty only has normal influence. It helps but building any colony takes ages due to the poor population growth. I look forward to seeing the change in the new versions.
You're right. I change my vote about who is the winner in this game. It's clearly wobbly.