Fixing Influence - any ideas welcome

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Daybreak
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Re: Fixing Influence - any ideas welcome

#16 Post by Daybreak »

Oberlus wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 7:59 pm
Daybreak wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 6:53 pm My influnece never launched either, and agree I normally get 300 IP econ policy early as well - I also dont have it either.
Thats what I am trying to say overall - influence needs to be adjusted.
So you agree that normally you don't have influence problem, only this time.

That doesn't need adjustment.
No I don't agree, normally is a SP game - there is a whale of a difference.

Here you yourself are stating ypou cant achieve it - why not?
Oberlus wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 7:59 pm
An etty for a replicon - for which an etty only has normal influence. It helps but building any colony takes ages due to the poor population growth. I look forward to seeing the change in the new versions.
What change?
The 25% increase in population growth as per https://www.freeorion.org/forum/viewtop ... =6&t=12510
Oberlus wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 7:59 pm
Daybreak wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 6:53 pm Right now - you still have more fleet than I do, not matter how big my empire looks.
You're right. I change my vote about who is the winner in this game. It's clearly wobbly.
You missed the point - that maybe there should be an influence cost to fleet as well, but a lesser cost for planets.

I am asking for is a test in the next test game. It would be great if that could include an influence cost to fleet.

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Oberlus
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Re: Fixing Influence - any ideas welcome

#17 Post by Oberlus »

Daybreak wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 10:42 pm Here you yourself are stating ypou cant achieve it - why not?
Because you took my capital. I lost key policy slots with the policies they had, and lost a lot of IP due to disconection and having to adopt confederation. I would be conquering half your territory by now if I had guarded my capital, but I didn't expect you creating a starlane...
The 25% increase in population growth as per https://www.freeorion.org/forum/viewtop ... =6&t=12510
No one has made that change. I personally am against it, is someone asks me.


I also think ships should have IP upkeep by default.

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Vezzra
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Re: Fixing Influence - any ideas welcome

#18 Post by Vezzra »

Daybreak wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 6:53 pmMaybe that is another solution - fleet needs to have an influence cost as well, so the bigger your fleet the more influence you pay - I thought it already did, but I cant see it.
That's the plan. It just hasn't been implemented yet.

Actually, my idea/preference would be to replace the current increase in PP costs for producing new ships (depending on the number of ships you already have) with IP maintenance costs for ships which have to be paid every turn. Alternatively, there is also the idea to make this subject to policies - depending on specific policies you can adopt, one or the other method of incurring maintenance costs will be used.

Adding that is planned for subsequent releases, as that would be a rather major change to game dynamics and most likely will require quite extensive balance passes, as well as some design discussion beforehand. Which is why we didn't want to include it into 0.5.
Oberlus wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 11:08 pmI also think ships should have IP upkeep by default.
I agree.

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Re: Fixing Influence - any ideas welcome

#19 Post by Daybreak »

When IP costs for fleet is implemented, then colony IP costs should be reduced. I don't think increasing IP costs any further would be good for the game. In fact I think overall they should be reduced anyway as I earlier proposed.

The game has become a big stalemate in some ways, with advantage going towards whoever is able to source the best IP as early as possible.

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Oberlus
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Re: Fixing Influence - any ideas welcome

#20 Post by Oberlus »

The empire able to produce more IP (or RP, or PP) from less planets, thanks to a good combination of species and policies, is probably also able to produce more PP and RP (or IP and PP, or IP and RP).
And that is OK, is what I expect from the game.

wobbly
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Re: Fixing Influence - any ideas welcome

#21 Post by wobbly »

Daybreak wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 11:56 pm When IP costs for fleet is implemented, then colony IP costs should be reduced. I don't think increasing IP costs any further would be good for the game. In fact I think overall they should be reduced anyway as I earlier proposed.

The game has become a big stalemate in some ways, with advantage going towards whoever is able to source the best IP as early as possible.
I disagree with this assessment of the situation, it's certainly not what I'm seeing in game. As far as "best IP as early as possible" goes, Influence doesn't start kicking in as a major factor till much later in the game. If you don't have a good influence source by mid game you'll probably suffer, but you do have a fair bit of time to try and do something about it.

Regarding the stalemate issue, I don't think that's right. Seems to me an old winning method is no longer as effective and people have been a little slow to adjust their strategies to the new balance. It used to be that the easiest way to convert an advantage was to just gobble up every colony near you and snowball. Your PP/RP rises, the enemies PP/RP shrink, you grind out the win. This is no longer as effective. You still chew up their ability to produce so well, but you get bogged down yourself. If you want to win now you have to strike at the enemies core. Bring down their major shipyards, shatter their supply, just plain wreck your opponent. To me that's an improvement, not something that needs to be fixed.

You know, in current MP, maybe about 2 weeks or so ago you had an absolutely won position. At least from my perspective. This is in some ways easier to judge from the defending side. Sometimes as a defender you know you can't hold if the enemy comes forward and puts the boot in. Often on the attacking side you are missing the necessary information to know this and advancing seems risky. When you took down Oberlus's capital you also took down his only shipyard. I ended up lending him an Ugmor shipyard to give him some chance to survive, but in reality he was wrecked, double wrecked and triple wrecked. It seems to me you went with a strategy that would of worked in old versions. Eat all of his colonies. Get fat. Snowball. It gave him the time he needed to get a large shipyard down. It gave me the time I needed to bring a fleet across to help him.

Current mechanics aren't perfect and still need a bunch of balancing to work, however I don't think they are the root problem. I'd suggest trying to change your strategy and finding what works best in the game as is, rather then assuming the game needs to change to match a strategy that no longer works.

Wooh, that ended up being a wall of text. My apologies.

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Re: Fixing Influence - any ideas welcome

#22 Post by Oberlus »

Quite to the point, IMO.

Daybreak
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Re: Fixing Influence - any ideas welcome

#23 Post by Daybreak »

wobbly wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 6:09 am I disagree with this assessment of the situation, it's certainly not what I'm seeing in game. As far as "best IP as early as possible" goes, Influence doesn't start kicking in as a major factor till much later in the game. If you don't have a good influence source by mid game you'll probably suffer, but you do have a fair bit of time to try and do something about it.
Not true - influence pays a huge part early game because thats when you set, swap, change direction, and reinstate different policies, all which cost influence on top of the albeit small cost of colony upkeep at first, which then grows.

* Oberlus had Kobuntura early, Shimmer Silk, Succulent Barnacles, and even even fractural geodes there for a while, allowing him good influnece and therefore he had more planets he could turn to better PP and RP resulting in larger fleets early on.

* I had no specials, and no good influence species unitl I took Detheren at turn 106, and that was on the other side of the galaxy
* Endhu, had no specials and was using Properganda and Moderation to get a small boost in inflluence to support his small pp and rp.
* From what I can see Lienrag had no influence specials either, and apart from 1 happy birthday base, no other good influence species
* o001eg had none either.

I dont know exactly about you Wobbly, but I bet you had access to species with good influence, and maybe some specials - you tell us, did you?
wobbly wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 6:09 am Regarding the stalemate issue, I don't think that's right. Seems to me an old winning method is no longer as effective and people have been a little slow to adjust their strategies to the new balance. It used to be that the easiest way to convert an advantage was to just gobble up every colony near you and snowball. Your PP/RP rises, the enemies PP/RP shrink, you grind out the win. This is no longer as effective. You still chew up their ability to produce so well, but you get bogged down yourself. If you want to win now you have to strike at the enemies core. Bring down their major shipyards, shatter their supply, just plain wreck your opponent. To me that's an improvement, not something that needs to be fixed.

You know, in current MP, maybe about 2 weeks or so ago you had an absolutely won position. At least from my perspective. This is in some ways easier to judge from the defending side. Sometimes as a defender you know you can't hold if the enemy comes forward and puts the boot in. Often on the attacking side you are missing the necessary information to know this and advancing seems risky. When you took down Oberlus's capital you also took down his only shipyard. I ended up lending him an Ugmor shipyard to give him some chance to survive, but in reality he was wrecked, double wrecked and triple wrecked. It seems to me you went with a strategy that would of worked in old versions. Eat all of his colonies. Get fat. Snowball. It gave him the time he needed to get a large shipyard down. It gave me the time I needed to bring a fleet across to help him.

Current mechanics aren't perfect and still need a bunch of balancing to work, however I don't think they are the root problem. I'd suggest trying to change your strategy and finding what works best in the game as is, rather then assuming the game needs to change to match a strategy that no longer works.

Wooh, that ended up being a wall of text. My apologies.
Again not true - I managed one fleet and starlane to take down Oberlus's capital while Endhu distracted him. I did not gobble up any of his territory, and it is only within the last 20 turns I have started to get back the Nit systems he took from me, plus others. He always had that large fleet of organics, and always a larger fleet than mine, and overall my empire because of poor influence was relatively new, and the slow population growth holds you back even more. At 106 I had Detheren, at 120-140 I had two more, but with 40 turns to even get close to a good population means a drawn out influence increase, which is now allowing me to increase my PP

Oberlus was never going to be down for long- because he still had all of his systems and populations, and although a decrease in PP and RP, he still had his high influence, which he used to change his policies to confederation, and climb back, and then still even more influence to again change his polices back to Liberty, etc again.

You say you were worried we were coming for you - We never had the fleet for that.
How can an attacker even come for you?
Never enough fuel to chase you down
Gobble up territory to get close, and you have an influence problem unless blessed with good influence species and specials.

Yes over time it is possible.

All I ask is you look at the facts and numbers. If approximately 50% of your planets output is set to Influence, with the rest of your output spread between PP, RP, etc, to me that is problem. I think 1/3rd is more appropriate.

Wobbly if you took away your good species and specials, what would the percentage of your planets needed to be set to influence to support your PP, etc

Wobbly I will repeat this statement by you -
If you don't have a good influence source by mid game you'll probably suffer, but you do have a fair bit of time to try and do something about it.
What if you don't and can't. I appreciate that in the future there may be some policies designed for your species to help negate that problem, but should the game be determined by specials, and your ability to capture a good influence species.

my wall of text, so my appologies

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Re: Fixing Influence - any ideas welcome

#24 Post by Oberlus »

This game was a bit special regarding species. We had a single artistic species, Silexian, that dislike Artisan Workshops. That is rare.

The luxury specials got me +6 IP per turn. That was nice, but not much of a difference when it's less than 10% of influence upkeep (>60). Kobuntura were great at producing influence, but I had 4 set to industry and 3 to influence most of the time. 3 Kobunturas set to influence are similar to 7 average influence planets set to influence (accounting for the extra upkeep from having more colonies). So an empire without kobuntura and 34 planets can be as good as my empire.

Daybreak, you letting me alive after the capital conquest and then going to help LienRag, that was a big mistake. You could have instead secured your domination of my space.
Also, going Indoctrination and Divine Authority, or Terraforming, or Environmentalism, would have make a huge difference in your influence income, Daybreak. You didn't adapt to your situation.

LienRag was screwed because he engaged early in war with wobbly and had some bad tactical choices (also some good ones, but not enough), and very bad diplomatic choices, and also bad tech and policy choices. I wonder what could have happened if he exploited the +40 planetary stealth of Trith instead of getting into a who-has-the-larger-dick contest with wobbly.

Endhu was pocketed and didn't want to engage into an alliance with me or a peace pack to expand unmolested.

No idea about o01eg.

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Re: Fixing Influence - any ideas welcome

#25 Post by wobbly »

Daybreak wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 1:13 pm I dont know exactly about you Wobbly, but I bet you had access to species with good influence, and maybe some specials - you tell us, did you?
I have maybe 2 that look like this:
Tae.png
Tae.png (49.39 KiB) Viewed 377 times
The majority look like this:
Mu.png
Mu.png (45.73 KiB) Viewed 377 times

Daybreak
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Re: Fixing Influence - any ideas welcome

#26 Post by Daybreak »

Oberlus wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 1:29 pm This game was a bit special regarding species. We had a single artistic species, Silexian, that dislike Artisan Workshops. That is rare.

The luxury specials got me +6 IP per turn. That was nice, but not much of a difference when it's less than 10% of influence upkeep (>60). Kobuntura were great at producing influence, but I had 4 set to industry and 3 to influence most of the time. 3 Kobunturas set to influence are similar to 7 average influence planets set to influence (accounting for the extra upkeep from having more colonies). So an empire without kobuntura and 34 planets can be as good as my empire.
and two specials, dont forget about those.
Daybreak, you letting me alive after the capital conquest and then going to help LienRag, that was a big mistake. You could have instead secured your domination of my space.
In your opinion - Wobblys fleet by that time was quite big, and after taking down Lienrags fleet, left towards Endhu. My second fleet was not only sent to help Leinrag, but to pull Wobbys fleet back over to that side, which it achieved. Wobbly soon had several fleets, which combined exceeded mine in size, so I withdrew.

I could not dominate your space - you still had lots of fleet yourself which you sent o the other side and I could not reach, and I had no troop ships.
Also, going Indoctrination and Divine Authority, or Terraforming, or Environmentalism, would have make a huge difference in your influence income, Daybreak. You didn't adapt to your situation.
If I had the influence, which was only then starting to build.
LienRag was screwed because he engaged early in war with wobbly and had some bad tactical choices (also some good ones, but not enough), and very bad diplomatic choices, and also bad tech and policy choices. I wonder what could have happened if he exploited the +40 planetary stealth of Trith instead of getting into a who-has-the-larger-dick contest with wobbly.

Endhu was pocketed and didn't want to engage into an alliance with me or a peace pack to expand unmolested.

No idea about o01eg.
Lienrag was Eaxaw not trith, and maybe he did make bad choices, but all this is not relevant except for the fact both you and Wobbly had good influence and therefore better PP and RP.

Endhu, expand over controlled space? leaving him vulnerable at a later stage of the game.


wobbly wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 3:52 pm
Daybreak wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 1:13 pm I dont know exactly about you Wobbly, but I bet you had access to species with good influence, and maybe some specials - you tell us, did you?
I have maybe 2 that look like this:

and

The majority look like this:
Nice

You also have some ugmors with 150% influence if yuo wanted.

Any specials earlier on?

My title says Fixing Influence - any ideas welcome
You guys are talking about tactics, and style of play -I believe our tactics based on how we manoeuvred you around the map, with our smaller fleets, were sound. Hence my reference to a cat and mouse stalemate for most of the game.
You talk about how I expanded more than you and the assumed old style of play meant I had not adapted, therefore had a high influence cost, completely forgetting that if I had early access to specials and species with good influence,it may have been a different story, as it would be very soon. My actual expansion had more to do with reaching the Detheren to the far left of my empire than anything (plus a happy birthday colony to boost my RP).

Why are you not seeing the flow of the game, and how the lack of specials and species with good influence, for all empires, actually influenced who would be larger. YES yes, maybe some decisions could have gone or should have been made that way or this way, but at the end of the day it is inflence that made the difference.

Wobbly imagine this - If every species had the same normal influence, then the problem of rapid expansion and steamrolling would still be addressed.

But by having different levels of influence it has created a new problem while adressing the old problem. Don't get me wrong, I am not against different levels of influence, but obviously it needs balancing.

My asked for "test" was to give players who may not have any specials or species with good influence, a bigger chance to build more fleet, and to prove the point overall. That increase could then be changed later into policies or bonuses if you want.

I do still beleive that IP is not fairly balanced against PP, PR, etc, and maybe others will see that as time goes on, or maybe not.

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Re: Fixing Influence - any ideas welcome

#27 Post by Oberlus »

We agree to disagree.

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Re: Fixing Influence - any ideas welcome

#28 Post by wobbly »

I also have Mu Ursh for influence. As in the species that you swore black and blue were unplayable just a month or so ago.

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Re: Fixing Influence - any ideas welcome

#29 Post by Oberlus »

Oh, and RIS were so OP too, a month ago.

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Re: Fixing Influence - any ideas welcome

#30 Post by Daybreak »

Disappointed you both resortied to derogatory statements.
wobbly wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 11:07 am I also have Mu Ursh for influence. As in the species that you swore black and blue were unplayable just a month or so ago.
Not Unplayable
Daybreak wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 11:05 pm Mu Ursh is pretty much been nerfed out of the game

I have managed to play them, but its hard to achieve. Mu Ursh in protection focus, All other shipbuilding scrapped, and certain polices required, as well as imports.

This creates a gap between Misiorla +3 piloting skill (Quite easy to integrate) and species with +1 piloting skills (Quite easy to integrate).
Which resulted in disucussion and a pull request to remove some of the dislikes.

Thank you for also pointing out you had another high influence species. I had missed that one.
Congratulations on playing Mu Ursh - I know that would have meant certain policies you could not, or were difficult to have, plus other considerations.

Oberlus wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 12:57 pm Oh, and RIS were so OP too, a month ago.
They are overpowered early in the game, even if they are costly, and I stand by the need to cap the total shield power to 40 inbetween Plasma and Deflector shield, which is where the total cost sits.

In the end sending them to attack by themsleves without a mixed fleet of fighters as spam (which you had) to take down my fleet containg HB's and B''s, (as well as not having a scout to see my backup coming), was a mistake.

The fact you had that stack early on, kind of proves my point of this thread. There was no other player in mp20 that could have achieved that in such short time.
Oberlus wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 5:43 am We agree to disagree.
Well at least we agree on that. Maybe there is hope...

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