Fixing Influence - any ideas welcome

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Daybreak
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Fixing Influence - any ideas welcome

#1 Post by Daybreak »

I believe that influence is now one of the biggest problems in FO.

Look at MP20
Oberlus very quickly found some Kobunture. A good find early on that launched him into the lead with its good influence and great Production.
Later I found Detheren, that made all the difference, as I was struggling even with George's normal influence.
Wobbly has some Tae Ghirus, which is starting to allow him to expand his production. Not sure how many he had
Lienrag - normal influence which he has struggled with for some time (even with 1 Happy Birthday base), but also a xenophobic race.
Endhu - with very bad influence, and no local natives, put him behind in the race as well.
o01eg - with bad influence, although o01leg is playing the single race path, whch we know needs addressing in policies etc, just as much as there is also a discussion on fixing xenophobic races.

The point is, if you start with good influence it gives you a huge advantage -policies are easier to come by, and more species/planets can be set to PP or RP within your empire

I know you are changing some of these individual species to help with some of these problems, but I believe we need to make a much more fundamental change to Influence

Lets look at it overall
In MP20 I had
27 planets doing IP
17 doing PP
8 doing RP
4 doing growth
2 doing protection

That was very little growth in IP at all.

I believe that the current configuation of the game reqquires about 50% to 40% of your empire is required to produce IP, with the balance of 60-50% split between PP, IP, etc -
How ridiculous is that.

It stifles the whole game

All ideas welcome, but I would like to test dropping the cost of colony upkeep by 40% in the next MP game - I believe we would get something like this

19 planets doing IP

39 planets split between doing PP, RP, Growth, Protectione.

I realise there are many more variables, and my numbers are a little rough, but it would be great to test it in MP 21.

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Oberlus
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Re: Fixing Influence - any ideas welcome

#2 Post by Oberlus »

Daybreak, I don't share most of your insights here.
Daybreak wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 10:13 am Oberlus very quickly found some Kobunture. A good find early on that launched him into the lead with its good influence and great Production.
Invaded at turn 51.
That's not my definition of very quickly.
That was my fifth inhabited planet.
My influence never really launched. I'm used to get to the 300 IP econ policy quite early, and this time I couldn't. It's turn 200ish and I don't have it yet.
I wasn't really into the lead.


Later I found Detheren, that made all the difference, as I was struggling even with George's normal influence.
Later than turn 51? How much later?

LienRag didn't struggle with influence (no one does it early game, influence upkeep is low then), he struggled with war against wobbly, who would also be much more developed had they both not fight each other that early.

Endhu and I shared species relatively early, can't find the sitrep for that, but not far from turn 50.

I believe that the current configuation of the game reqquires about 50% to 40% of your empire is required to produce IP, with the balance of 60-50% split between PP, IP, etc -
How ridiculous is that.
I assume you mean game=FO?
If that is the case, those percentages are for your policies and species an planets/outposts in the current turn of MP20.
That is as intended: the most powerful empire needs more colonies set to influence, to reduce the steamrolling effect.
If you meant game=current turn of MP20, I don't see the problem.

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Geoff the Medio
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Re: Fixing Influence - any ideas welcome

#3 Post by Geoff the Medio »

Daybreak wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 10:13 amI would like to test dropping the cost of colony upkeep by 40%
I'd rather suggest adding bonuses with conditions that require specific play styles, rather than a general reduction in cost.

wobbly
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Re: Fixing Influence - any ideas welcome

#4 Post by wobbly »

Any problems LR had were mostly self caused. Too many outposts. Too many disconnections (ok maybe I caused that particular problem). Currently he has every colony disconnected from the capital on account of not having a capital. I can't speak for any of the others.

I'll give numbers for all good influence and above(Tae Ghris, Ugmor and Mu Ursh). 14 on influence out of 46 with +5 Influence

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LienRag
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Re: Fixing Influence - any ideas welcome

#5 Post by LienRag »

wobbly wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 1:25 pm Any problems LR had were mostly self caused.
Not sure with "self caused" but yes they resulted from choices I made (or had to make, depending on the interpretation) and in the test game I played before with Eaxaws I didn't have that much Influence problem.

But I believe that Racial Purity should have some Stability and Influence bonus for the capitol species, yes (stability bonus on all planets, not sure what Influence bonus exactly though).

And again, I insist that the Imperial Palace bonus should be raised, probably to +7.

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LienRag
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Re: Fixing Influence - any ideas welcome

#6 Post by LienRag »

Geoff the Medio wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 1:12 pm I'd rather suggest adding bonuses with conditions that require specific play styles, rather than a general reduction in cost.
Interesting, care to elaborate ?

wobbly
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Re: Fixing Influence - any ideas welcome

#7 Post by wobbly »

LienRag wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 2:20 pm
wobbly wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 1:25 pm Any problems LR had were mostly self caused.
Not sure with "self caused" but yes they resulted from choices I made (or had to make, depending on the interpretation) and in the test game I played before with Eaxaws I didn't have that much Influence problem.
Sounds like self caused to me.
LienRag wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 2:20 pm And again, I insist that the Imperial Palace bonus should be raised, probably to +7.
Why? Why increase influence generation in the 1 part of the game where you are already swimming in IP.

Daybreak
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Re: Fixing Influence - any ideas welcome

#8 Post by Daybreak »

Geoff the Medio wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 1:12 pm
Daybreak wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 10:13 amI would like to test dropping the cost of colony upkeep by 40%
I'd rather suggest adding bonuses with conditions that require specific play styles, rather than a general reduction in cost.
I would like to see the drop in cost as a test to prove the theory, that influence slows the game significantly, more than it should.

How it is ultimately implemented, can be as you said, or a combination of a drop in cost, bonuses, and play styles.

There are just so many variables in the game, a blanket change, like stability being increased by 5, can give us an idea of what we need or a direction.

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Geoff the Medio
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Re: Fixing Influence - any ideas welcome

#9 Post by Geoff the Medio »

LienRag wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 2:21 pm
Geoff the Medio wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 1:12 pm I'd rather suggest adding bonuses with conditions that require specific play styles, rather than a general reduction in cost.
Interesting, care to elaborate ?
There are various examples of policies and other content that give conditional bonuses. Diveristy depends on how many species are present. Centralization has a mix of bonuses and penalties that require connectivity and compactness. Isolation benefits spread out populated planets and penalizes close together ones. Interstellar Lighthouse penalizes stealth, which may matter or not, depending on strategy.
LienRag wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 2:20 pmRacial Purity should have some Stability and Influence bonus for the capitol species...
Probably reasonable, especially if limited by some additional conditions, like not having any other species in the same system, and additional bonus if no other species are in the whole empire, though the latter might need some additional nuance or allowance to make it less annoying to temporarily control a planet while replacing its species.

o01eg
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Re: Fixing Influence - any ideas welcome

#10 Post by o01eg »

LienRag wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 2:20 pm But I believe that Racial Purity should have some Stability and Influence bonus for the capitol species, yes (stability bonus on all planets, not sure what Influence bonus exactly though).
How Racial Purity should work if empire captured other capital planet?
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LienRag
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Re: Fixing Influence - any ideas welcome

#11 Post by LienRag »

Geoff the Medio wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 6:20 pm There are various examples of policies and other content that give conditional bonuses.
Oh, that's what you meant !
I concur then.

Geoff the Medio wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 6:20 pm especially if limited by some additional conditions, like not having any other species in the same system,
Actually yes, it could be interesting to have this bonus limited by the proximity of Natives or allied/enemy planets (of different species).
Species in the same Empire are impossible to have anyway with Racial Purity, the stability malus is too huge.

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LienRag
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Re: Fixing Influence - any ideas welcome

#12 Post by LienRag »

o01eg wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 6:23 pm How Racial Purity should work if empire captured other capital planet?
AFAIK when you capture another capital planet it stops to be a capital planet...
You keep the cultural archive (well, usually not in MP, but still) and the Imperial Palace is destroyed.
And with Racial Purity as it works now you're more or less forced to remove the planet's population to replace it with your own anyhow.

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LienRag
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Re: Fixing Influence - any ideas welcome

#13 Post by LienRag »

wobbly wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 3:58 pm Why? Why increase influence generation in the 1 part of the game where you are already swimming in IP.
I agree that this would mean some adjustment to the costs of many Policies, as indeed it means "swimming in IP" at the beginning of the game.

Why then ? As I wrote the first time that I made this argument, because in early game there is no need to "prevent snowballing" nor to prevent "Colonize everything" patterns (lack of production already achieves that) and having to put some planets to Influence is just a chore, it achieves nothing in terms of game balance.
With such a buffed early IP production, one would need to care about influence only once in middle-game, where it is imho more relevant.

Daybreak
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Re: Fixing Influence - any ideas welcome

#14 Post by Daybreak »

Oberlus wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 11:27 am
Daybreak wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 10:13 am Oberlus very quickly found some Kobunture. A good find early on that launched him into the lead with its good influence and great Production.
Invaded at turn 51.
That's not my definition of very quickly.
That was my fifth inhabited planet.
My influence never really launched. I'm used to get to the 300 IP econ policy quite early, and this time I couldn't. It's turn 200ish and I don't have it yet.
I wasn't really into the lead.
Turn 51 is quick in this game.

My influnece never launched either, and agree I normally get 300 IP econ policy early as well - I also dont have it either.
Thats what I am trying to say overall - influence needs to be adjusted.
Oberlus wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 11:27 am
Later I found Detheren, that made all the difference, as I was struggling even with George's normal influence.
Later than turn 51? How much later?
Captured Detheren at turn 106
Oberlus wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 11:27 am Endhu and I shared species relatively early, can't find the sitrep for that, but not far from turn 50.
An etty for a replicon - for which an etty only has normal influence. It helps but building any colony takes ages due to the poor population growth. I look forward to seeing the change in the new versions.

Oberlus wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 11:27 am If that is the case, those percentages are for your policies and species an planets/outposts in the current turn of MP20.
That is as intended: the most powerful empire needs more colonies set to influence, to reduce the steamrolling effect.
If you meant game=current turn of MP20, I don't see the problem.
Right now - you still have more fleet than I do, not matter how big my empire looks.

The growth of an empire is very slow, compared to the immediate impact of influence.

Maybe that is another solution - fleet needs to have an influence cost as well, so the bigger your fleet the more influence you pay - I thought it already did, but I cant see it.
Oberlus wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 11:27 am LienRag didn't struggle with influence (no one does it early game, influence upkeep is low then)
Yes early on there is plenty of influence, but early game you need it for policies.

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Oberlus
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Re: Fixing Influence - any ideas welcome

#15 Post by Oberlus »

Daybreak wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 6:53 pm My influnece never launched either, and agree I normally get 300 IP econ policy early as well - I also dont have it either.
Thats what I am trying to say overall - influence needs to be adjusted.
So you agree that normally you don't have influence problem, only this time.

That doesn't need adjustment.

An etty for a replicon - for which an etty only has normal influence. It helps but building any colony takes ages due to the poor population growth. I look forward to seeing the change in the new versions.
What change?
Daybreak wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 6:53 pm Right now - you still have more fleet than I do, not matter how big my empire looks.
You're right. I change my vote about who is the winner in this game. It's clearly wobbly.

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