Game balance in 0.4.4 release—feedback needed

Describe your experience with the latest version of FreeOrion to help us improve it.

Moderator: Oberlus

Forum rules
Always mention the exact version of FreeOrion you are testing.

When reporting an issue regarding the AI, if possible provide the relevant AI log file and a save game file that demonstrates the issue.
Message
Author
godel
Space Dragon
Posts: 267
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2015 12:58 am

Re: Game balance in 0.4.4 release—feedback needed

#46 Post by godel »

The chronic complaint was that people don't read that wiki.
This implies that you think that some should.
See:
"You can update description but it will not help. Nobody reads it.
...
I do read it. I have been playing a lot of FO games, and it is the first time I really understand that industrial centers do not stack. For the Pedia description, it seems that any IC will spead its bonus to all supplied industry focused colonies. Updating the description helps.
"
If you want people to read it, if you reference it in every explanation, then you need to consider a link between the tool tip and the larger explanation.

User avatar
Dilvish
AI Lead and Programmer Emeritus
Posts: 4768
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2012 6:25 pm

Re: Game balance in 0.4.4 release—feedback needed

#47 Post by Dilvish »

godel wrote:The chronic complaint was that people don't read that wiki. This implies that you think that some should.
A couple times we might have referred you to the wiki, but I don't see a chronic complaint about people not reading it. It is helpful, but it is focused on different things than the content descriptions we have been discussing here.
See: "You can update description but it will not help. Nobody reads it....
I see that discussion as all about the Pedia, not the wiki, at least about all these tech and building descriptions. But, I am not about to spend time arguing with you about how clear that was. Hopefully my immediately previous post was clear enough about where our focus is on providing content descriptions.
If I provided any code, scripts or other content here, it's released under GPL 2.0 and CC-BY-SA 3.0

godel
Space Dragon
Posts: 267
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2015 12:58 am

Re: Game balance in 0.4.4 release—feedback needed

#48 Post by godel »

Thanks for clearing up that, and for the prior clarification of my ideas.

WastedSpace
Space Krill
Posts: 1
Joined: Sun Apr 26, 2015 4:04 pm

Re: Game balance in 0.4.4 release—feedback needed

#49 Post by WastedSpace »

Hi everyone. I am new to this game and am struggling to find detailed info for newbies. I believe that I have read the "quick start" guide from the wiki but what I do not see are any simple tables for ships that compare their weapon types (i.e. damage done by each type and PP of each to build), shield/armour types (i.e. protection offered by each and PP of each to build), hull types (i.e. slots offered by each and PP of each to build). I did find a post that graphically displayed the research tree which was VERY HELPFUL. Without reference to this basic info, it has been hard for me to plan my empire (i.e. what should I research and build).

godel
Space Dragon
Posts: 267
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2015 12:58 am

Re: Game balance in 0.4.4 release—feedback needed

#50 Post by godel »

Wasted,
At this time, and I have recently been where you are,
You have to play the game and take notes.
Most advances are more powerful then the ones before, but laser is less than Mass driver 4.
Mass driver 1 is about 3 points, as you know.

User avatar
Dilvish
AI Lead and Programmer Emeritus
Posts: 4768
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2012 6:25 pm

Re: Game balance in 0.4.4 release—feedback needed

#51 Post by Dilvish »

godel wrote:Most advances are more powerful then the ones before, but laser is less than Mass driver 4.
It is true for all the weapon tiers that Weapon 4 of tier X will be stronger than Weapon 1 of tier X+1 (and I think generally weapon 2 of tier X+1 also). This is intended to make for more interesting decisions about when to possibly skip immediately to the next tier versus completing the current one (is my recollection about the reasoning). You can review the strength of all these weapons in the ship design window.
If I provided any code, scripts or other content here, it's released under GPL 2.0 and CC-BY-SA 3.0

godel
Space Dragon
Posts: 267
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2015 12:58 am

Re: Game balance in 0.4.4 release—feedback needed

#52 Post by godel »

" strength of all these weapons in the ship design window."
But only after you have researched them.

The lack of specifics in the in game data bases is a bother.
You want to get better at colonizing worlds of other kinds? good luck. No one will say that one population advance will do something.

User avatar
MatGB
Creative Contributor
Posts: 3310
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:45 pm

Re: Game balance in 0.4.4 release—feedback needed

#53 Post by MatGB »

Documentation is an ongoing project that is frequently a lower priority than getting things to work in the first place. However, all the info on ship parts, hulls, etc is available in game from the beginning, in the research window click the 'locked' toggle and it will display all the techs. In the Design window, you can select 'unavailable' for both ship parts and ship hulls and look at everything that is possible.

I hope that all in game documentation is accurate, even if it is at times a little sparse, I (and others) have done what we can to update things and remove errors and outdated info, fixing anything highlighted in the future should be a lot easier given our change to hosting on Github so just point me at the bits you think are wrong if you find something.

I do intend, and want, to go back and do a lot more to the Wiki at some point, expanding on the strategy guides, etc, but I've got sidetracked (again) by balancing projects and trying to improve in game help (currently I've been working on expanding the sitreps so that you get more information about what happens when).
Mat Bowles

Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

User avatar
Dilvish
AI Lead and Programmer Emeritus
Posts: 4768
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2012 6:25 pm

Re: Game balance in 0.4.4 release—feedback needed

#54 Post by Dilvish »

godel wrote:" strength of all these weapons in the ship design window." But only after you have researched them.
The 'unavailable' parts palette button was added a couple months before 0.4.4 came out, so it seems you are just not looking into things much at all. Statements like that communicate wrong information to other players. It is strange that you would decide to make such statements instead of asking for clarification-- even such a simple change as instead asking "But is that possible if you haven't yet researched them?" would change your contribution from a negative to a positive. If you wish to point out deficiencies in the game, it would greatly help if you would qualify your statements with something like "Based on what I have been able to find in the version I am playing (which is 0.4.4 [or whatever]), it seems that blah..."
The lack of specifics in the in game data bases is a bother. You want to get better at colonizing worlds of other kinds? good luck. No one will say that one population advance will do something.
We've already pointed out to you earlier in this very thread where all the details for the population techs are covered ingame, and I have asked you multiple times to please be specific if you see places where you feel information is left out. Please be constructive here.
If I provided any code, scripts or other content here, it's released under GPL 2.0 and CC-BY-SA 3.0

godel
Space Dragon
Posts: 267
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2015 12:58 am

Re: Game balance in 0.4.4 release—feedback needed

#55 Post by godel »

OK, I did not know to go to such.
I am not too farther then the original poster.
I have just created a ship with an unavailable weapon, and thereby got the weapon's strength.
Nothing in the description (Death ray, refined to level four) gave that info directly. Nor is there anything in the research tool tip to indicate strength. Sometime, just add numbers to such tips, please?
I understand that getting the game to a playable state is more important than documentation. I completely agree.

User avatar
Dilvish
AI Lead and Programmer Emeritus
Posts: 4768
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2012 6:25 pm

Re: Game balance in 0.4.4 release—feedback needed

#56 Post by Dilvish »

godel wrote:I have just created a ship with an unavailable weapon, and thereby got the weapon's strength.
You do not need to create a design, or even add the part to a design, to see the base damage for the part-- in the Design Window just left-clicking on a part in the palette displays all of its info in the Pedia Detail panel.

Nothing in the description (Death ray, refined to level four) gave that info directly.
Once again, you are just talking about the tooltip as if that is all that is available. Tooltips are meant to be a quick helpful "tip", not a full description of all useful details. Actually left-click on the thing, and then read the info in the Pedia panel. If you are in some part of the game where left-clicking doesn't bring anything up in the Pedia, then try right-clicking; some things will give a "Look up <this> in the Pedia" from right-clicking.

Other things, like system icons in the Map Window, don't have a way to directly pull up an entry in the pedia-- for some things like that you'd just have to rely on manual navigation in the Pedia and (for now) on info from the quickstart guide.

Nor is there anything in the research tool tip to indicate strength. Sometime, just add numbers to such tips, please?
I hope you understand your mistake here now. Stop trying to rely only on tooltips. Especially for something like this example-- the damage is a characteristic of the part, not of the research tech itself. Research techs can unlock many other parts/hulls/techs, and it is highly unlikely we will ever try cramming all of that info into their tooltip. Clicking on the tech puts its info into the pedia panel, and includes clickable links to the pedia entries for the parts/hulls/techs unlocked by the current tech, and from the pedia entry for the part(s), for example, you can get their details.
If I provided any code, scripts or other content here, it's released under GPL 2.0 and CC-BY-SA 3.0

User avatar
MatGB
Creative Contributor
Posts: 3310
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:45 pm

Re: Game balance in 0.4.4 release—feedback needed

#57 Post by MatGB »

Adding it to the tooltip is actually a good idea. So is using your eyes:
death-ray-strength.png
death-ray-strength.png (10.9 KiB) Viewed 452 times
Mat Bowles

Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

User avatar
Dilvish
AI Lead and Programmer Emeritus
Posts: 4768
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2012 6:25 pm

Re: Game balance in 0.4.4 release—feedback needed

#58 Post by Dilvish »

MatGB wrote:Adding it to the tooltip is actually a good idea.
Mat persuaded me to add part capacities to the ship part tooltips in the Design Window; that will be in the next weekly build.
If I provided any code, scripts or other content here, it's released under GPL 2.0 and CC-BY-SA 3.0

godel
Space Dragon
Posts: 267
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2015 12:58 am

Re: Game balance in 0.4.4 release—feedback needed

#59 Post by godel »

Wow what a lot of things that were not apparent.
Left clicking on a tool tip? Last I asked for a connection from the tip to the pedia I got that I should get the info by looking it up on the pedia.
Cool. I really needed to be taught. I did not have a clue. So, thanks!
A number is a small addition, glad that the tool tips will get a few numbers.
And the in game pedia does not seem to have numbers. I am using the sometimes buggy sometimes awesome Linux experimental build.
I just hit the pedia for Death ray 2.
It was as shown. I am very surprised. I had not noticed that, and thought that I had found it otherwise.
Thanks!

User avatar
Dilvish
AI Lead and Programmer Emeritus
Posts: 4768
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2012 6:25 pm

Re: Game balance in 0.4.4 release—feedback needed

#60 Post by Dilvish »

godel wrote:Left clicking on a tool tip?
No! Left-click on the research panel, or production panel, or whatever-- the thing the tooltip is for. This is very standard user interface behavior.
If I provided any code, scripts or other content here, it's released under GPL 2.0 and CC-BY-SA 3.0

Post Reply