tips for a newbie (what to research / build when) ?

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Dilvish
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Re: tips for a newbie (what to research / build when) ?

#16 Post by Dilvish »

Kassiopeija wrote:I found that researching into mines is rather lackluster because their damage is usually soaked up into shields.
Their damage does start out a bit lackluster, and may in some situations get mitigated by repair techs, but mine damage is not mitigated by shields. I thought that was covered in a broad/vague way in the pedia entry for shields, but perhaps we should clarify that in the pedia entry for mines.
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Chriss
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Re: tips for a newbie (what to research / build when) ?

#17 Post by Chriss »

Yep, think it ignores shields, too.
Also, stock organic troop ships are killed by advanced mines in one round (the AI has this at some point). That's annoying, I tell ya...
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MatGB
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Re: tips for a newbie (what to research / build when) ?

#18 Post by MatGB »

Chriss wrote:Yep, think it ignores shields, too.
Also, stock organic troop ships are killed by advanced mines in one round (the AI has this at some point). That's annoying, I tell ya...
Guarantee mines ignore shields, tested that.

But, y'know, part of the point of mines is to force players in the mid to late game to build tougher ships. Given my preferred troop ship is a spatial flux with two troop pods… ;-)
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Kassiopeija
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Re: tips for a newbie (what to research / build when) ?

#19 Post by Kassiopeija »

I'm sorry if I did give out false information but I don't see this in my games. I've just reloaded some savegames, researched mines and let the AI park onto my worlds, but these mines don't seem to do anything...? Actually, I was led to believe that this is because of shields, but as I see it now they don't even work on scouts, or troop ships, nothing for any number of turns.

Are there some additional game mechanics to mines I am not aware of? Or maybe a bug that got fixed in the meantime? I play 0.44 stable

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MatGB
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Re: tips for a newbie (what to research / build when) ?

#20 Post by MatGB »

Damage Control.

If there's no combat in a system, which won't happen if the scouts or troop ships are set on passive, then basic, fleet field and advanced damage then the ships will repair—for what it's worth I only worked this out (I actually consider it a "bug" but it's working as coded) last game.

If any combat, including bombardment to keep defences at zero, happens, then field repair and advanced damage control don't work. But in the absence of combat (is if all orbiting ships are passive) then repairs can kick in.

I'm, currently, working on a planetary stealth patch, my next two jobs are going to be another pass on damage control techs and something reworking stargates, not sure what I'll be in the mood for, but the stealth work I'm doing is, well, there'll be another thread in a few minutes, I'm having some weird results.

But damage control doesn't work the way it's going to, it's been improved for 0.4.4 from what it was at 0.4.3, but it's still too powerful. I hope to do some more work on mines after damage control is sorted, we decided several months ago to leave off doing more work on them until after DC because the way the two interact is inextricably entwined.

It is, possible, that mines aren't working 100% properly against AI ships, that in theory shouldn't be possible but it's above my ability to test.

(for what it's worth, the most recent test build is both stable and rather nice, if you're playing semi regularly, I recommend using tests when possible, it's nearly 6 months since the release of 0.4.4 and a lot of nice work's been done since.
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Kassiopeija
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Re: tips for a newbie (what to research / build when) ?

#21 Post by Kassiopeija »

MatGB wrote:Damage Control.
But still, wouldn't I get at least a message that ship/fleet xyz has been taken away HP by mines? Even if they are instantly repaired...
MatGB wrote: If there's no combat in a system, which won't happen if the scouts or troop ships are set on passive, then basic, fleet field and advanced damage then the ships will repair—for what it's worth I only worked this out (I actually consider it a "bug" but it's working as coded) last game.

If any combat, including bombardment to keep defences at zero, happens, then field repair and advanced damage control don't work. But in the absence of combat (is if all orbiting ships are passive) then repairs can kick in.
There are 3 types of enemy fleets present; 1. Scout 2. Troops 3. Fighters

During the first turn no fighting occured, in the 2nd and 3rd the Fighters destroyed the planetary defense+shields. I think the AI tried to invade this planet but he doesn't have enough troops on his ships.

None of his ships have taken any damage from mines, but
MatGB wrote: (for what it's worth, the most recent test build is both stable and rather nice, if you're playing semi regularly, I recommend using tests when possible, it's nearly 6 months since the release of 0.4.4 and a lot of nice work's been done since.
I'm rather giving this a try and see. Yeah I was hoping for a new release all the while :)

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Dilvish
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Re: tips for a newbie (what to research / build when) ?

#22 Post by Dilvish »

Kassiopeija wrote:But still, wouldn't I get at least a message that ship/fleet xyz has been taken away HP by mines? Even if they are instantly repaired...
No, the mine damage sitreps only go to the damaged ship owners. I think I originally had it set up to also send messages to the owner of the mines as well but after some discussion we dropped that (is my vague recollection). It would be a fairly easy customization for you to add those back.
MatGB wrote:Damage Control. If there's no combat in a system, which won't happen if the scouts or troop ships are set on passive, then basic, fleet field and advanced damage then the ships will repair—for what it's worth I only worked this out (I actually consider it a "bug" but it's working as coded) last game.
Yeah, structure adjustments from Effects don't trigger the Combat flag.

Geoff, I don't see an Effect that allows us to update the LastCombatHere attribute, but perhaps we should add one.
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Geoff the Medio
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Re: tips for a newbie (what to research / build when) ?

#23 Post by Geoff the Medio »

Dilvish wrote:...I don't see an Effect that allows us to update the LastCombatHere attribute, but perhaps we should add one.
Depends if mines count as "combat"... Quite reasonable to say they don't, given the distinct stage of turn processing and game mechanics that is combat...

In general, there are a lot more things tracked by the game than effects that can modify them...

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Dilvish
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Re: tips for a newbie (what to research / build when) ?

#24 Post by Dilvish »

Geoff the Medio wrote:
Dilvish wrote:...I don't see an Effect that allows us to update the LastCombatHere attribute, but perhaps we should add one.
Depends if mines count as "combat"... Quite reasonable to say they don't, given the distinct stage of turn processing and game mechanics that is combat...In general, there are a lot more things tracked by the game than effects that can modify them...
Sure, it's a reasonable call to say they don't count as combat, but as the discussion shows a scripter could also have very good reason to want to count them as combat, so that the damage they do is not instantly undone by the damage repair techs that would have been blocked by combat, or at least not if they sit in mines for multiple turns. Of course that would also block repair by defending fleets as well even if incoming enemies didn't make it past the mines; seems fair enough to me but it's something the content scripter would want to keep in mind. Regardless of whether you think the standard-issue-content mines should have that characteristic, it seems to me that it would be a very good feature for us to put under the control of a scripter.
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MatGB
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Re: tips for a newbie (what to research / build when) ?

#25 Post by MatGB »

I don't think it should count as a combat, in the case that caused me to notice it it was a scout ship hiding slightly beyond the path from their shipyards to my invasion fleet, no combat happened, but my hidden scout took mine damage then repaired itself. I think a condition along the lines of "not in enemy system" would be more than adequate, not sure if that exists and can live without it for what I've in mind if it doesn't, unless it's dead easy to add.
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Dilvish
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Re: tips for a newbie (what to research / build when) ?

#26 Post by Dilvish »

MatGB wrote:I think a condition along the lines of "not in enemy system" would be more than adequate, not sure if that exists and can live without it for what I've in mind if it doesn't, unless it's dead easy to add.
A clause for in-a-system-in-which-an-enemy-owns-a-planet would be easy enough to add, and I agree may be a better solution for this particular issue.

I still tend to think that the combat flag should be controllable via scripting, but perhaps that's just me being complicated.
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Re: tips for a newbie (what to research / build when) ?

#27 Post by Ilthik »

Hey all, just started playing FreeOrion last week. Got my butt handed to me a couple times by the AI before I found this thread. Seems to have veered away from the OP, but those first couple of posts with research tips are great. Looking through the Pedia gives some idea of what techs are good (+population, +science/industry), but it seems like getting the right tech order is absolutely critical to success. Once that's done the AI puts up very minimal resistance. Suggestions: maybe sticky this thread or something similar devoted to newbie hints? Or add something like this to the wiki? Also, maybe the AI needs to start using some of these strategies so it can put up a bit of a fight!

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mem359
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Re: tips for a newbie (what to research / build when) ?

#28 Post by mem359 »

I've been poking around the Python code that controls the AI, especially the tech research lists.
The decision tree depends on the EmpireID, but this is in the C code, which I don't have. (I'm using the provided builds, so I haven't downloaded the source code.) Is there a short explanation for what 1-11 mean for EmpireID ?

I suspect the AI would be better off researching Robotic Production and Fusion Generation earlier.
In particular, I'm going to try reordering the research list to put them ahead of Zortrium Armor and Orbital Construction. They are similar in RP costs, but the 30% x population boost in production is nicer to get sooner.
This will make them a bit weaker for warships in the early game, but it might help them from falling so far behind the production race in the mid and late game.

Also, the AIstate.py has a "minimalColoniseValue = 3". I'm going to see if setting that to 2 or 1 will encourage the AI to colonize more. I think discouraging the AI from settling tiny and small adequate worlds (in the early game, after Sub. Ter. is researched), which have longer supply lanes, could be inhibiting empire growth.

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Dilvish
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Re: tips for a newbie (what to research / build when) ?

#29 Post by Dilvish »

Ilthik wrote: it seems like getting the right tech order is absolutely critical to success. Once that's done the AI puts up very minimal resistance.
You've been playing just a week and find the AI to now be putting up "very minimal resistance", on what AI aggression level? If you have it up to Maniacal and are already finding it to give minimal resistance, then congrats, most people take much much longer to get to that point.
mem359 wrote:I've been poking around the Python code that controls the AI, especially the tech research lists.
The decision tree depends on the EmpireID, but this is in the C code, which I don't have. (I'm using the provided builds, so I haven't downloaded the source code.) Is there a short explanation for what 1-11 mean for EmpireID ?
No special significance, it's just an index number for each empire. The AI code uses that just to get a little variety between the AIs in a repeatable way.
I suspect the AI would be better off researching Robotic Production and Fusion Generation earlier. In particular, I'm going to try reordering the research list to put them ahead of Zortrium Armor and Orbital Construction. They are similar in RP costs, but the 30% x population boost in production is nicer to get sooner. This will make them a bit weaker for warships in the early game, but it might help them from falling so far behind the production race in the mid and late game.
You can certainly experiment with moving those, but in particular moving them before Orbital Construction only really helps their production if they've conquered a native planet by then because otherwise they are probably still be heavily research focused. The one AI research path variant that has Robotic Production before Orbital Construction really only does it to get an early unlock of Military Robotics & the Robotic Hull. Seeing them fall behind in mid to late game is far more likely because of the fact that they don't yet take advantage of the new colony building colonization tactic, plus just generally not being quite as good as you in the whole range of things they need to take care of for their empire to grow well. But please, experiment away, and if you find changes that make the AI tougher then please share them.
Also, the AIstate.py has a "minimalColoniseValue = 3". I'm going to see if setting that to 2 or 1 will encourage the AI to colonize more.
Actually, that's just a bit of legacy code that hadn't gotten cleaned out yet; it's not used at all anymore, I'm pretty sure.
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mem359
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Re: tips for a newbie (what to research / build when) ?

#30 Post by mem359 »

Dilvish wrote:
Also, the AIstate.py has a "minimalColoniseValue = 3". I'm going to see if setting that to 2 or 1 will encourage the AI to colonize more.
Actually, that's just a bit of legacy code that hadn't gotten cleaned out yet; it's not used at all anymore, I'm pretty sure.
Thanks for pointing that out.
I noticed before that it was set in two places (globally and initialization), but a search now shows that it isn't used anywhere else.

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