Most challenging map setups?

Describe your experience with the latest version of FreeOrion to help us improve it.

Moderator: Oberlus

Forum rules
Always mention the exact version of FreeOrion you are testing.

When reporting an issue regarding the AI, if possible provide the relevant AI log file and a save game file that demonstrates the issue.
Message
Author
Damiac
Space Floater
Posts: 20
Joined: Mon Oct 05, 2015 4:47 pm

Most challenging map setups?

#1 Post by Damiac »

I'm wondering what the hardest game setup is. Lots of systems and AIs, so one of them can rise to the top of the heap and become a decent challenger? Few systems, so we're fighting right from the get-go? What type of galaxy?

Space monsters seem like they'd be harder for the AI to manage than a human, so I assume you'd want to minimize those. Obviously you'd want the AI on the most aggressive setting.

I was thinking it'd be nice if there was an option to start the game X turns later than the opponent, but then, I suppose it's quite easy to do that yourself by just doing nothing the first X turns.

Basically, I'm looking for the most challenging experience possible for a single player game, without just playing purposely badly or giving myself some extra limitation. It's hard to get a feel for the strategic depth of the game when I seem to win regardless of my strategy.

I understand strategic depth will always be limited against AIs, but I'm just wondering if other players have found particularly challenging setups.

User avatar
MatGB
Creative Contributor
Posts: 3310
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:45 pm

Re: Most challenging map setups?

#2 Post by MatGB »

K, yes, the 'hardest' settings tend to kill the AI worse than the player making it actually easier as long as you can survive the early game (I've seen one AI completely wiped out by monsters once, we changed the way they worked a bit as a result).

Low planets and/or Low starlanes works well (not both, the AI still can't quite handle that well enough and gets trapped too regularly). Low/no monsters and low/no specials (specials create guardians which can get in the way).

For galaxy shape, I'm currently really enjoying the Disc layout, you basically get irregular spokes and everyone has to head inwards. I find with spirals you're either in the middle and in trouble or in a spiral and can secure flanks too easily, ring is far too easy and clusters is problematic so I've started avoiding that.

I tend to find one AI per 15-20 systems works well depending on other settings, you can have fewer than that but that can also mean that sometimes an AI is on its own somewhere and never bothers learning how to fight.
Mat Bowles

Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

Damiac
Space Floater
Posts: 20
Joined: Mon Oct 05, 2015 4:47 pm

Re: Most challenging map setups?

#3 Post by Damiac »

Hmm, so low planets, no specials, no monsters, disc layout, 200 systems, 12 ai would be a good starting point I guess. Thanks for the suggestion.

I'll have to download the newest test version and try that out. I know the 'official' version 0.45 has the bug with monster generation, where low mean extremely high, is that bug fixed in the new test version?

If anyone else has any suggestions for challenging setups, keep them coming, I know I'm not the only person interested in getting the most challenge possible out of the game.

User avatar
MatGB
Creative Contributor
Posts: 3310
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:45 pm

Re: Most challenging map setups?

#4 Post by MatGB »

That's not a bug I'm even aware of existing, let alone being fixed, I may have missed it though.
Mat Bowles

Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

Morlic
AI Contributor
Posts: 296
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2015 11:54 am

Re: Most challenging map setups?

#5 Post by Morlic »

I would also recommend no natives - a human player tends to make much more use of them.


Picking Egassem or Trith on relatively sparse maps where you can not rush opponents (~30 systems/player or so) may require a different approach to your game and thus make for an interesting match.

A dense-packed elliptic map where you happen to spawn in the middle of the map can be challenging as well.


@Mat: http://freeorion.org/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 805#p81178 is the bug he is talking about.
If I provided any code, scripts or other content here, it's released under GPL 2.0 and CC-BY-SA 3.0

Damiac
Space Floater
Posts: 20
Joined: Mon Oct 05, 2015 4:47 pm

Re: Most challenging map setups?

#6 Post by Damiac »

I could have sworn I saw someone mention it, and my last game with low monsters was swarming with them.

Here it is.... in fact, it was your post!
MatGB wrote:
Dilvish wrote:I think I found the major problem, and perhaps why you and I had different perceptions of the suitability of the Krill spawn rate -- a mistake about monster frequencies; the turn event script comments indicate that it was expecting the numbers to be the inverse of what they actually are-- i.e. thought that Low would be 30 meaning 1 monster per 30 systems, and that High would be 3, whereas actually they are 0.033 (1/30) and 0.333 (1/3). So the code was dividing by these numbers rather than multiplying, meaning that with High monsters it was making them at 9 times the stated desired rate, and with Low monsters (which is what I've been playing with) it was actually making making them 10 times as fast as at the High monster rate, which is 900 times as fast as the stated intent for Low. :D
Ah, that also might be why I couldn't understand what the maths was doing when I read it, although frankly I suspect it's more that it was maths ;-)

I hadn't, yet, noticed that Low was producing more than high, I've tested on Medium and Low but my Medium game got lost relatively early when I recompiled and it broke.
Now, simply correcting that math mistake seems it would probably make the rates a bit too low-- I wouldn't really want the Low spawn rate to be 900 times lower than it is now, so I upped them all by a factor of 10. So on High monsters the rate will actually be very slightly higher than it is now, on Medium monsters it would be about 1/6 of what it is now, and on Low it will be about 1/90 of what it is now. It could be the spawn rate should still be higher than that, but I'll put this in as an initial fix, along with timing gates on Krill development like there are for the other monsters.
Sounds fair, only, um, I think The Silent One has accidentally reverted your commit and I'm not sure how to fix.

User avatar
MatGB
Creative Contributor
Posts: 3310
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:45 pm

Re: Most challenging map setups?

#7 Post by MatGB »

Ah, no, that's a very specific problem with an explicitly new feature that wasn't in the Release, and only affected the new random spawning of Krill in empty systems, didn't affect numbers on any other monster type.

Agree about Egassem by the way, in Release they're way underpowered (and Gysache are ludicrously powerful if you've any natives at all that can build ships nearby). But in the most recent Tests that disparity is reduced and I'm working on something that probably makes them a bit too good, initially...
Mat Bowles

Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

AndrewW
Juggernaut
Posts: 791
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2013 10:15 pm

Re: Most challenging map setups?

#8 Post by AndrewW »

MatGB wrote:Agree about Egassem by the way, in Release they're way underpowered (and Gysache are ludicrously powerful if you've any natives at all that can build ships nearby).
And those natives don't happen to also be bad pilots...

User avatar
Kassiopeija
Dyson Forest
Posts: 212
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2014 6:14 pm
Location: Black Forest

Re: Most challenging map setups?

#9 Post by Kassiopeija »

Most hard game so far Egassem irregular, low planet density, low natives, low monster, low specials, low starlanes, 200 systems against 5 AI. Very unlucky bad starting position that yielded only ~10 colonizable planets during the first 100 turns. I went all production to make the most out of Egassem trait, so needed alot of turns until I could research Exobots.

UNFORTUNATELY, anything that makes the game harder (or: interesting) also makes the game even more harder for the AI, who is not so adapt in improvising. So, first AI I met was also Egassem who only had a total of 2 colonies, and all other players were around 3 to 4 (max), most of them bottlenecked at the edges of the map.

So for the AI it's much better to create amap with medium starlanes & systems... but that actually renders all games the same, same researchpath because, anything you need will be found & available on the map. With a rare setup, you oftentimes have to find alternatives because of
- well what do I do no more colonizable planet in reach
- no asteroids in my systems
- only less gas giants, orbital generation might not really pay off this soon
- no domestication
- no ruins easy early win
etc you get it

molchsender
Space Krill
Posts: 3
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2015 5:18 am

Re: Most challenging map setups?

#10 Post by molchsender »

Well, the difficulty problem could be approached by enabling the player to change the attributes of the empire species. I assume bad population, bad research and bad industry would provide some challenges.

User avatar
Kassiopeija
Dyson Forest
Posts: 212
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2014 6:14 pm
Location: Black Forest

Re: Most challenging map setups?

#11 Post by Kassiopeija »

Initially yes, but once you've got Exobots, found some "can colonize planets" Natives or just take worlds from the next AI near your vicinity, you can basically neglect all your starting penalties and settle for good.

If you have a somewhat balanced medium map, all games tend to look the same from midgame on, its always the same species that are optimal for that kind of planet types etc pp

In Galactic Civilizations, you're faced to deal with your racial picks throughout the whole game, they are influencing any & every planet/ship/whatever you have, adding alot of different flavours to (basically) the same things...

For example, in the above game described, I couldn't really do much with the good production of the Egassem, even with homeworld supply couldn't find more habitable worlds, and military wasn't necessary because no contact to AI was established. So I produced Outposters in advance, and made empty outposts everywhere. Then -once I got Exobots- I populated most of them with Exobots and from that point on saw a massive increase in _anything_, and esp. my starting problems (low planet tolerance, low research) was completely overcome.

User avatar
MatGB
Creative Contributor
Posts: 3310
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:45 pm

Re: Most challenging map setups?

#12 Post by MatGB »

More on the original point. Playing through a Disc galaxy with 250 systems and High planets, High specials, Low monsters, medium everything else.

It's been great fun, I'm having challenging fights and there are still 3 AIs in the game that are more than just speedbumps. It's turn 195 and I'm now just over the line of controlling half the map, the 'spoke' layout that disc seems to create means you can get control of your immediate area then push inwards to the centre where lots of similarly powered AIs are all having a fight.

Caveat: I'm playing with my current Working directory not the official test, which anyone interested can grab here: Commits · MatGB/freeorion, it's compatible with the current Trunk, it's basically a whole bunch of work in progress changes, the significant one is that Good/Bad/Ultimate Industry have substantially more effect but I haven't finished balancing that right, Egassem are a bit powerful in it, but it shouldn't make a massive difference, I can strongly recommend Disc layout now and, if your system can manage it, the AI seems to do substantially better in High planets, which is good.
Mat Bowles

Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

User avatar
Vezzra
Release Manager, Design
Posts: 6095
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:56 pm
Location: Sol III

Re: Most challenging map setups?

#13 Post by Vezzra »

Glad to hear that the new Disc shape turns out so well. What do you think, maybe we can make it the "default" layout instead of Elliptical?

defaultuser
Juggernaut
Posts: 854
Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2015 6:15 pm

Re: Most challenging map setups?

#14 Post by defaultuser »

I have been enjoying cluster, but I might need to give this a try.

User avatar
MatGB
Creative Contributor
Posts: 3310
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:45 pm

Re: Most challenging map setups?

#15 Post by MatGB »

Vezzra wrote:Glad to hear that the new Disc shape turns out so well. What do you think, maybe we can make it the "default" layout instead of Elliptical?
At the moment, I'd say yes, but it needs testing by others. Put as such for the Test builds and we can make a final decision closer to next Release I'd say, it's definitely fun but that might be more because it's "new" so I'm still learning it.
Mat Bowles

Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

Post Reply