Bug's found on first run thru + a couple ui suggestions.

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xlightwavex
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Bug's found on first run thru + a couple ui suggestions.

#1 Post by xlightwavex » Mon Nov 16, 2015 6:48 am

First i want to say you guys are doing a heck of a job.
I found some bugs playing with like 160 stars and and everything on high plus like 30 enemy's in.

#1 ... 1st is terraforming issues.

A).
As terran the game allows you to terraform your homeworld for no effect.
It should tell you "This world cannot be terra-formed anymore"
B).
You can't terraform outposts
You can't put a colony on one and do so if its a bad world.
because obviously your population will die off in one turn or so it seems.

#2 ... ExoBots

A).
Exo bots when you design a ship i am recieving the messege that the condition to place them on a robotic ship is not met even on the ship that is by its name a roboticship.
B).
It gave me designs as i researched stuff for exo bots but i couldn't use any of them as terran.
When i completely reloaded and started the game all those designs in that save were gone.

#3)
Oh when you send pop as terran that building just does it automatically i would like a way to turn the migration on or off instead of making and destroying the building
Also it wastes your production and tech research across the entire empire if you do that.

#4)
The left right mouse reverse is busted after i changed it no matter what i do it wont reset.
My fingers are going cross-eyed with the left right clicking being opposite of how you would normally use it, left click to select and move, right click to open menu's.
...
Well that's all i really remember so that must the worst ones. If i find any more ill post them up.
...
_________________________________________________
I also have a couple ui suggestions.
_________________________________________________
#1)
When you mouse over or hover over a enemy ship toss up a face for that race.
Just show it in the corner or something to quickly keep things intuitive.
Have a few of them for that race as there maybe many ai or human players with the same race.
When the mouse comes off the ship stop showing it.
#2)
When there has been a battle ...
Then at the beginning of the turn, when you get your sit rep.
Play a ding ding sound, nothing annoying, just to let the player know a battle occured.
#3)
A star map button that you can click to close the other windows quickly, would be liked.
I found myself closing a lot of windows at times, as it felt to cluttered.
#4
The diplomacy is sparce so im guessing that's not polished yet.
So ill try to offer only a couple simple suggestions here.
...
A)
In this case when you click on the diplomacy panel on a race / nation.
Show, the following...
...A small panel with a face...
...The buttons that are applicable for what you can do...
...The face of your leader that roughly tells takes the values of hostility or what not...
...And gives a description of what is likely or likely to not to succeed such as peace war a gift...
...
You might even want a class just to handle when one one guy clicks on another race, in that screen. Just to compare the two then a few tables to see, if there is a description that matches the situation to give the player as advice or feedback, that would be really a nice touch.
...
That is done most excellently in games like nobunga's ambition the new one
It was done in a broken way in moo3, but it was nicer then looking at numbers for diplomacy.
If the advisor doesn't have advice just let him say that
"he doesn't know in this situation what they are thinking"
B)
The tech tree bonus's seems to lean toward either weapons population growth
or small % wise tech increases.
Actual extra population gain tech, would be helpful like a cloning center.
That can clone .01 pop per turn per planet or what not.
You could also use that as a description on colony ships for were the population comes from.

Anyways it looks good so far
Would be nice to see the ships in a little window doing what they are doing for battles.
So you could follow along with how well and what exactly your tech is doing.
I got no clue what weapons and tech is actually any good.
...
Even if its not a actually battle just seeing the ship pic and a little lazer fire.
and then miss cloak, enemy lazer II hit, player1 plasma 2 hit 20damage, ect,,,
Then i could go back and view the battle results if i wanted, even if it all just flashed by.

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MatGB
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Re: Bug's found on first run thru + a couple ui suggestions.

#2 Post by MatGB » Mon Nov 16, 2015 7:26 pm

xlightwavex wrote:First i want to say you guys are doing a heck of a job.
I found some bugs playing with like 160 stars and and everything on high plus like 30 enemy's in.

#1 ... 1st is terraforming issues.
I'm hoping someone will do a pass for terraforming soon, if they don't I'll get to it eventually ;-)
A).
As terran the game allows you to terraform your homeworld for no effect.
It should tell you "This world cannot be terra-formed anymore"
[/quote]
Not sure what you mean here, can you post a screenshot? You shouldn't be able to terraform your homeworld, there may be a bug. It is possible to do a terraform reversal on your homeworld as the game frequently remakes the world on turn 0 as part of galaxy creation to ensure the players are spread out, but that's currently unavoidable but I hope to have another look at it at some point.
B).
You can't terraform outposts
You can't put a colony on one and do so if its a bad world.
because obviously your population will die off in one turn or so it seems.
I am very very hopeful that, with the new colonisation mechanic (the build a colony building system is new for this recent release) that we can bring back a system of remote terraforming in some way, it was taken out as it broke the game in some way but the new system would make it a very nice thing to have.

In the meantime, if you've researched terraforming you've had enough RP to research Xenological Genetics and Xenological Hybridisation, these should stop your new colonies dying off (and are currently, in my opinion, overpowered, but fixing them requires making remote terraforming work in some way or other).
#2 ... ExoBots

A).
Exo bots when you design a ship i am recieving the messege that the condition to place them on a robotic ship is not met even on the ship that is by its name a roboticship.
I don't know what you mean here?

Exobots can colonise lots of places by building colony buildings, once you've got a colony you can build ships with them (but as they're terrible shots I don't recommend building warships with them unless you've no choice).

Can you post a screenshot of the problem?
B).
It gave me designs as i researched stuff for exo bots but i couldn't use any of them as terran.
When i completely reloaded and started the game all those designs in that save were gone.
It sounds like there was some sort of bug here, if it happens again can you upload a savegame and the log files?
#3)
Oh when you send pop as terran that building just does it automatically i would like a way to turn the migration on or off instead of making and destroying the building
Also it wastes your production and tech research across the entire empire if you do that.
I don't know what you mean?
#4)
The left right mouse reverse is busted after i changed it no matter what i do it wont reset.
My fingers are going cross-eyed with the left right clicking being opposite of how you would normally use it, left click to select and move, right click to open menu's.
...
Well that's all i really remember so that must the worst ones. If i find any more ill post them up.
UI bug, not my remit, anyone?
_________________________________________________
I also have a couple ui suggestions.
_________________________________________________
#1)
When you mouse over or hover over a enemy ship toss up a face for that race.
Just show it in the corner or something to quickly keep things intuitive.
Have a few of them for that race as there maybe many ai or human players with the same race.
When the mouse comes off the ship stop showing it.
Ooh, I quite like elements of this plan, having the ships display a species icon somewhere would be quite nice. We don't, currently, have any art, at all, for species faces (and some of them don't really have what you'd call a face), but something would be needed, at a guess, for diplomacy when someone gets around to that.
#2)
When there has been a battle ...
Then at the beginning of the turn, when you get your sit rep.
Play a ding ding sound, nothing annoying, just to let the player know a battle occured.
Personally I'd find this very annoying, plus from about turn 100 onwards if there isn't a battle every turn I'm doing something wrong ;-) The sitreps are enough for me.
#3)
A star map button that you can click to close the other windows quickly, would be liked.
I found myself closing a lot of windows at times, as it felt to cluttered.
Escape button closes most of them in turn, having an equivalent on the mapwindow might be good, but beyond my remit.
#4
The diplomacy is sparce so im guessing that's not polished yet.
So ill try to offer only a couple simple suggestions here.
...
Correct, currently it's a small number of semi-random responses from the AI, at some point someone is going to do a lot more on it, beyond that I've not really considered it much (part of me dreads it, I always disliked the bits in the MOO series when I had to stop fighting everyone).
B)
The tech tree bonus's seems to lean toward either weapons population growth
or small % wise tech increases.
Actual extra population gain tech, would be helpful like a cloning center.
That can clone .01 pop per turn per planet or what not.
You could also use that as a description on colony ships for were the population comes from.
There used to be a 'cloning centre' building but it got taken out when there was a revamp of how population change works, it's one of those 'hmm' things I'd quite like to look at again.

But yes, a tech that increases the rate of change might be good, and possibly ramping down the current formula as it can get a bit fast once you get past a certain population size.
[/quote]
Anyways it looks good so far
Would be nice to see the ships in a little window doing what they are doing for battles.
So you could follow along with how well and what exactly your tech is doing.
I got no clue what weapons and tech is actually any good.
...
Even if its not a actually battle just seeing the ship pic and a little lazer fire.
and then miss cloak, enemy lazer II hit, player1 plasma 2 hit 20damage, ect,,,
Then i could go back and view the battle results if i wanted, even if it all just flashed by.[/quote]
We have the detailed battle report log, expanding on that would make some sense, there is a bit of an explanation gap, especially for newer players, the systems been revamped a couple times in the last few years and I don't think documentation caught up at all.
Mat Bowles

Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

defaultuser
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Re: Bug's found on first run thru + a couple ui suggestions.

#3 Post by defaultuser » Mon Nov 16, 2015 8:18 pm

I am very very hopeful that, with the new colonisation mechanic (the build a colony building system is new for this recent release)
Colonization changed again? What's it doing now?

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MatGB
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Re: Bug's found on first run thru + a couple ui suggestions.

#4 Post by MatGB » Mon Nov 16, 2015 8:53 pm

New for 0.4.5, there has been no change since then but it is a new feature, relatively, even though we've had it in Trunk for sveral months before 0.4.5 Release, I probably ought to stop saying "new" but given the rest of my comment made little sense unless it was understood to be a change...

I'm making less sense as I go on, sleep deprivation, I hope that's clearer ;-)
Mat Bowles

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defaultuser
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Re: Bug's found on first run thru + a couple ui suggestions.

#5 Post by defaultuser » Mon Nov 16, 2015 9:51 pm

Ok, got it. I had looked over the commits and didn't see anything major changes on colonization, so I was puzzled.

xlightwavex
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Re: Bug's found on first run thru + a couple ui suggestions.

#6 Post by xlightwavex » Tue Nov 17, 2015 11:12 am

Thanks for the reply's id like to respond in light of the information you have given me.
First let me say.

I have done some hobby programming in c# xbox monogame though most of this was experimental
algorithmic stuff but but not all. I do know that working in the box...
Its hard to see things from the perspective of new people coming in from outside it.
So i hope to just point out things i encounter repeatedly.
As they must be standing out to me the most.
It showed a button to terra-form on my homeworld so i did.

can you post a screenshot? You shouldn't be able to terraform your homeworld
Sorry i already erased the game but basically it was the only world i could terra-form.
And it of course didn't do anything, i thought it would make it a paradise world or something.
In the meantime, if you've researched terraforming you've had enough RP to research Xenological Genetics and Xenological Hybridisation, these should stop your new colonies dying off
I did not and would have never known this.

Can you add this fact to the tech description of the Terra-Forming tech itself in the tree.
As well as a note in both the above mentioned techs that briefly mention's it.
Aka ...
"With Xenological Genetics and Hybridisation deadly worlds maybe colonized and terraformed"

To add to the above. On the reason i ran into this problem.
I see simple, miscommunication.
In the tech tree there are wonderfully imaginative descriptions of the tech.
They describe how it came to be and what it is.
...
While most describe what they do.
Some do not actually describe, what they do 'in game'.
As in the context of the above occasion specifically.
...
Please make a note.
This is a Extremely important difference to keep in mind, when adding in game descriptions
#2
Exobots can colonise lots of places by building colony buildings,
once you've got a colony you can build ships with them
...
It sounds like there was some sort of bug here, if it happens again can you upload a savegame and the log files?
Again i wish i had a screen shot, this i think was a bug, if it happens again i will.

Some tech i researched i don't know which one, gave me a exobot module.
This appeared in my ship design window to be place on my ships.
I guessed that it was for colonizing of non terran planets, by exo bots ?
Though it allowed them be to place them on ships and save the designs.
I was not able to build them in the build ship window for actual use.
Later when i restated and reloaded a saved game.
All the ships it had made by default and the ones i had made were no longer visible in build ship window.
Ok maybe that was cause i could only use them on Exobot colonys and i didn't know lol.
Quote:
#3)
Oh when you send population as terran that building just does it automatically
i would like a way to turn the migration on or off instead of making and destroying the building
Also it messes up your production and tech research across the entire empire if you do it.

I don't know what you mean?
In the Planetary Ship / Structure, build window there is a....
'Evacuate' building, build option. This the player can place in the build que, however after it builds.
The planet immediately begins a evacuation.
With no option to turn it on or off other then destroying the building.

This sort of seemed like a odd out of place thing and confusing as well.
Here's why. I don't have regular Transport ships to drop population from one planet to another.
But i can evacuate !
I figured out the hard way that ... evacuate wont do so, to nearby outposts as well.

So if no colony's are nearby people will evacuate to space, but there are no transport ships.
At this point, there should be a riot, the people should burn down the evac building lol.
Anyways seems weird and you should get a sitrep about it next turn for what happened !
Also evacuate complete wrecks the economy it seems across all planets somehow.
UI bug, not my remit, anyone?
Ya this is for real ...
this is the buggy behavior as far as i can tell exactly.

Click the button under the options -> ui -> mouse click reverse.
It reverses the clicks for left right mouse buttons, good ok.
Now...
Close the game, open the game and everything is backwards.
Click the button to turn off reverse.... nothing happens.
BUG... The reverse is stuck on.
Click the button to turn on reverse ... nothing happens.
Click the button to turn off reverse again ... nothing happens.
Close the game with reverse off
Open the game, and it works.
...
To describe this exactly via logic.
If you turn on reverse then immediately close and open the game.
It stays on no matter what, until you uncheck it and close and open the game.
as opposed to normal behavior
Where clicking it on or off switches buttons regardless of how it was set when last saved.
What is probably happening,
Is that two checks are being made at the start one for the bool and one in a saved file.
these are interfering with each other to cancel out the logical switches in the specific order above.
#1)
When you mouse over or hover over a enemy ship toss up a face for that race.
Just show it in the corner or something to quickly keep things intuitive.
Have a few of them for that race as there maybe many ai or human players with the same race.
When the mouse comes off the ship stop showing it.

Ooh, I quite like elements of this plan, having the ships display a species icon somewhere would be quite nice. We don't, currently, have any art, at all, for species faces (and some of them don't really have what you'd call a face), but something would be needed, at a guess, for diplomacy when someone gets around to that.
You could for the moment simply toss up a image with just the text of the race name.
...
Make a few of these images that are mostly transparent as place holders with text only.
Draw them over-top of, a opaque background image, that is colored, to that ships, race color.
This allows later artwork to also leave portions of the over-top images transparent on purpose.
for more visual identification ques that the player can quickly distinguish.
...
For the multiple image part per race and player if desired as well.
Make some small random scribbled symbols in the corners of the images.
So that for multiple images of the same race they are distinguishable from others.
This also allows them to be distinguishable as images with text on them instead of just text...
This also is a way to show any one with artistic ability that this needs a picture.
Instead of random symbols scribble in corners, you might just write,
"artwork helper opportunity" lol jk.
Personally I'd find this very annoying, plus from about turn 100 onwards if there isn't a battle every turn I'm doing something wrong ;-) The sitreps are enough for me.
Your prolly right i was really thinking of at the start when there are practically no battles.
Maybe a color change to the border of the sitrep window would be a option ?
Escape button closes most of them in turn
didn't know that.
Correct, currently it's a small number of semi-random responses from the AI, at some point someone is going to do a lot more on it, beyond that I've not really considered it much
(part of me dreads it, I always disliked the bits in the MOO series when I had to stop fighting everyone).
I definitely think diplomacy should NOT be forced into the game.
It should be used were it fits to perform a action.
But you shouldn't be looking at numbers for diplomacy with only war or ally as options.
It should be mainly feedback driven.

Were you only tactically attempt some form of diplomacy action.
I.e. you send some guy to negotiate, or tell your cia director to gather intel on someone ect...
Or establish negotiations by sending a guy as your ambassador with a reason why.
Have your Negotiater bargain for something you want.
With anyone who you have relations with a specific race or just allies.
Then you just approve or disapprove depending who it is and what your or they want.
Basically anything that the ai needs at the moment tech wise or rp wise.
he can ask for and if hes willing to trade for what you want
your Diplomacy screen will show that to you.
Then you can accept or make a counter offer.
Don't attack me cause im in or about to attack so and so alliance or what not.
and at the end of 10 turns ill give you this 30 rp i have put away in the galactic swiss account.

I will start a separate topic on this to talk about it in detail.

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Geoff the Medio
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Re: Bug's found on first run thru + a couple ui suggestions.

#7 Post by Geoff the Medio » Tue Nov 17, 2015 12:33 pm

xlightwavex wrote:In the tech tree there are wonderfully imaginative descriptions of the tech.
They describe how it came to be and what it is.
...
While most describe what they do.
Some do not actually describe, what they do 'in game'.
As in the context of the above occasion specifically.
...
Please make a note.
This is a Extremely important difference to keep in mind, when adding in game descriptions
Can you give specific examples / a list of such techs? The vast majority of techs that do something directly in-game explain explicitly what they do. Eg. The description for Xenological Genetics has, right at the top:
Increases the max population of Adequate & Poor planets by planet size; Tiny: +2, Small: +4, Medium: +6, Large: +8, Huge: +10, and Hostile planets by planet size; Tiny: +1, Small: +2, Medium: +3, Large: +4, Huge: +5.
If you want something more like a strategy guide, explaining when and how to use the tech, that's a bit of a different request...

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MatGB
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Re: Bug's found on first run thru + a couple ui suggestions.

#8 Post by MatGB » Tue Nov 17, 2015 12:50 pm

Geoff the Medio wrote:[Can you give specific examples / a list of such techs? The vast majority of techs that do something directly in-game explain explicitly what they do. Eg. The description for Xenological Genetics has, right at the top:
Increases the max population of Adequate & Poor planets by planet size; Tiny: +2, Small: +4, Medium: +6, Large: +8, Huge: +10, and Hostile planets by planet size; Tiny: +1, Small: +2, Medium: +3, Large: +4, Huge: +5.
If you want something more like a strategy guide, explaining when and how to use the tech, that's a bit of a different request...
I actually don't think that's as clear as it could be to a new player, we know that lots of new players find the entire habitability system very confusing, and there's very little in game explaining it (it's on my list to improve at some point, especially now we can embed graphics). In fact, the suitability report is the best explanation in game and that's not clear or easy to find when the whole setup is confusing.

I think that tech needs to start, for example: "Makes Adequate, Poor and Hostile planets easier to colonise". Then follow with the existing techs, perhaps tweaked to explain the link to planet size.

I'll jump it up my list of things to tweak. I actually probably at this stage need to post a list of things to do in case someone else wants to volunteer the easier stuff.
Mat Bowles

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Re: Bug's found on first run thru + a couple ui suggestions.

#9 Post by defaultuser » Tue Nov 17, 2015 4:21 pm

xlightwavex wrote:Some tech i researched i don't know which one, gave me a exobot module.
This appeared in my ship design window to be place on my ships.
I guessed that it was for colonizing of non terran planets, by exo bots ?
Though it allowed them be to place them on ships and save the designs.
I was not able to build them in the build ship window for actual use.
Later when i restated and reloaded a saved game.
All the ships it had made by default and the ones i had made were no longer visible in build ship window.
Ok maybe that was cause i could only use them on Exobot colonys and i didn't know lol.
I'm confused about what you're asking. As far as I know, the only Exobot tech is the colony start that can be built at an outpost. Naturally, an Exobot world with sufficient population can build a colony ship, which could be used to colonize other worlds. The colony pod is just a ship part can can be added to a ship design, although you normally don't because the entire ship is scrapped when colonization takes place. That's not specific to Exobots.

Possibly you were adding colony pods to ships and then trying to build them at a world that didn't have sufficient population to build a colony ship? I don't know what that would have to do with difference after loading a saved game though.

If it's something, then I'm keen to learn.

xlightwavex
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Re: Bug's found on first run thru + a couple ui suggestions.

#10 Post by xlightwavex » Tue Nov 17, 2015 6:31 pm

On the exobots thing, im totally lost.
I honestly couldn't figure out how to build or use them at all.
I still don't, but i managed to get some weird looking stuff to happen trying.
Ill try again later on.

On habitabilty
"Makes Adequate, Poor and Hostile planets easier to colonise". Then follow with the existing techs, perhaps tweaked to explain the link to planet size.
Well one point is that doesn't really tell me that it
"shifts the red habitabilty value towards the green".

The main one is.
it's not on the terraforming tech description itself that terra-forming is linked to xenobiology.
Since what i researched was terraforming, i intended to terraform uninhabitable worlds obviously.
Being new as i am, i have no idea why, i would look at xenobiology or the other one.
Have no clue to do so on the terraforming technology description.

The main thing i see is the red -# and i think "that will kill population".
I see that on pretty much every world is not a terran type of world.

Basically i only had trouble figuring out 2 things so far well 3.

One of them is how to get a colony on a non terran world.
Without it die-ing before i could terra-form it which i still have yet to do.
It doesn't help that colony ships are super expensive and adequate can mean deadly.

Two is is how the scanning and and detection works for invasion and such.
I seem to never prioritize radar to increase it but im guessing that does ?

Three is exobots...
if you look at the description i would think i could build a exobot ship and it would colinize a planet.
But no matter what i tried i couldn't do it.

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Kassiopeija
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Re: Bug's found on first run thru + a couple ui suggestions.

#11 Post by Kassiopeija » Tue Nov 17, 2015 10:22 pm

xlightwavex wrote:On the exobots thing, im totally lost.
I honestly couldn't figure out how to build or use them at all.
I still don't, but i managed to get some weird looking stuff to happen trying.
Ill try again later on.

On habitabilty
"Makes Adequate, Poor and Hostile planets easier to colonise". Then follow with the existing techs, perhaps tweaked to explain the link to planet size.
Well one point is that doesn't really tell me that it
"shifts the red habitabilty value towards the green".

The main one is.
it's not on the terraforming tech description itself that terra-forming is linked to xenobiology.
Since what i researched was terraforming, i intended to terraform uninhabitable worlds obviously.
Being new as i am, i have no idea why, i would look at xenobiology or the other one.
Have no clue to do so on the terraforming technology description.

The main thing i see is the red -# and i think "that will kill population".
I see that on pretty much every world is not a terran type of world.

Basically i only had trouble figuring out 2 things so far well 3.

One of them is how to get a colony on a non terran world.
Without it die-ing before i could terra-form it which i still have yet to do.
It doesn't help that colony ships are super expensive and adequate can mean deadly.

Two is is how the scanning and and detection works for invasion and such.
I seem to never prioritize radar to increase it but im guessing that does ?

Three is exobots...
if you look at the description i would think i could build a exobot ship and it would colinize a planet.
But no matter what i tried i couldn't do it.
After researching Exobots-tech, right click on target planet --> suitability report, if number on Exobots is green/positive you can make an outpost there, and then, build an Exobots-colony afterwards.
For colonization, you really don't need to build Colony Ships or wonder about pods etc, just use Outpost Ships, but always observe that your target planets are in reach of your supply.

You can only terraform already inhabitated worlds. This is changing the planet type towards a more suitable one. Don't focus on this too early.
Instead, try to increase your general max population, you do this via the already mentioned techs:
- Orbital Habitation
- Cyborgs
- Subterranean Habitation
- Symbiotic Biology
- Xenological Genetics/Hybridization

BTW:
if you cannot do something you could always toggle the "unavailable" button and then you see which requirements you don't pass.

defaultuser
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Re: Bug's found on first run thru + a couple ui suggestions.

#12 Post by defaultuser » Tue Nov 17, 2015 10:37 pm

In 0.4.5.x there are two ways to colonize.

1. Build a colony ship or base at a world that has the species you want to use, which can colonize, and has the requisite population and happiness levels. After it is constructed, send the ship to the target world and colonize. This works for Exobots as well as any other species.

2. Put an outpost on the target world, and build a colony start. For most species, you have to have a supply-connected world of the species as above and which can colonize that planet. Exobots are constructed, so you don't need an existing Exobot world (good because they're never a native species) but they consequently cost a bit more to build. Plus you have to have researched the tech.

Exobots are the only ones that can colonize asteroid belts.

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