I'm here - introduction

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MatGB
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Re: I'm here - introduction

#181 Post by MatGB »

OK, two answers. Firstly, for ages (as in, from the beginning of the game until last year) colony ships were the only way to do it.

Feedback from players (including me, but especially newer players who'd played several games) was that, especially on bigger games, building ships to colonise was in the early game fun but in the mid to late game annoying, especially as the build time could be a large amount of playtime with breaks & saves so you'd forget what you were doing. We were looking for a better way to colonise systems within 'safe' supply connected areas. Lots of ideas were talked about, this is what we came up with that actually works relatively well.

There are some advantages to building colony ships, especially in the early game, they can colonise out of supply and/or can start growing population and shipyards, etc immediately you've got there, which if you're in a faught over area with enemies can be very useful. Plus, colonies have longer supply length, especially if you're playing Etty, George or Egassem which have racial advantages there (and Egassem have a much harder start as they can't colonise 'adequate' worlds, they don't have any).

Colony ships were intentionally kept in but, by design, we costed things so that colony ships would be less optimal and less efficient. Colonising via outpost is, after a lot of feedback, a vastly better experience for players with less work and micromanagement (something that is a stated intention to have as little as possible of within the game) while being more flexible and, well, 'fun'.

I used to pick a species for an entire system and use colony bases to fill the rest of the planets as/when I got the habitability boosts, sub optimal and annoying, but far more efficient than moving colony ships around all the time. Now each planet gets the best species on it and I'm far more inclined to actually colonise in the mid to late game, before I simply switched when my military was good enough and went full on invade-only, with colonies only being put in to extend supply or grab very strategic resources.

Crucial tech, for both systems: Lifecycle Manipulation. Colony buildings will start at 3 population if they complete on or after the turn you research that, in addition you can now build Cryonic Colony Ships which carry 3 population. Intentionally each gives you the same result.

Basically, if the planet you want to colonise is in supply and safe from enemies, use outposts, it's quicker, more efficient and less hassle while being more flexible. If you want to colonise somewhere out of supply, build a colony ship (preferably armoured) and send it out with a fleet to defend it.
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Bromstarzan
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Re: I'm here - introduction

#182 Post by Bromstarzan »

Very nice read, Mat!
Thanks for providing this historic background to the use/development of colony ships and outposts. The crucial and not so trivial point here is that outposts (capability) don't survive without starlanes, while colony ships do. Right?
This, together with how you use outposts in midgame to pickup systems within your control makes sense and add to the awesomeness of FO! I think my questions sprung from the fact that I have so far played the game "safe", i.e. not sent out colony ships far beyond my starlanes. Only used them to extend my empires borders, so with a scout, an escort and a colonys ship I can actually do much more than I could with an outpost. I understand this now, and also understand why outpost ships have been given the ability to colonize. Good solution!
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defaultuser
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Re: I'm here - introduction

#183 Post by defaultuser »

A few notes.

1. Colony ships take one less turn to complete a colonization, so that can be a legitimate choice on occasion. I'm more likely to do that with colony bases though.

2. A circumstance that favors ships is when you want to colonize a planet that is currently blocked by a monster. So while low-level warships are reducing that, you can build a colony ship and be ready to go when the coast is clear.

3. The new colonization was in the 0.4.5 release version.

4. Species choice also involves (for me) the characteristics of the candidates. If one of the me is going to have a bonus for what I want to do there, then I factor that in.

AndrewW
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Re: I'm here - introduction

#184 Post by AndrewW »

Bromstarzan wrote:But, why having two ways of doing it? An expensive way and a cheap way? I can see the advantage of using outpost ships to initially extend starlanes/visibility and providing shileds/defence (without colonizing) and then at a later stage perhaps place a population to gain RP/PP. Then; what is the advantage of using a colony ship? Quicker development of colony? Does it deploy larger population in one go that leads to better PP/RP in a faster pace?
A colony ship is useful if you want to colonize a planet that is outside your current supply range as you can't use the outpost/colony method then. Originally you could only use the colony ship method, then the outpost/colony method was put in which makes the colonizing process easier.

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Bromstarzan
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Re: I'm here - introduction

#185 Post by Bromstarzan »

Your notes seem logical to me, defaultuser.
Thanks AndrewW, I think I understand the difference now.
It will also be evident the first time I want to colonize outside my empires starlane network.
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Cpeosphoros
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Re: I'm here - introduction

#186 Post by Cpeosphoros »

Bromstarzan wrote:Then; what is the advantage of using a colony ship? Quicker development of colony? Does it deploy larger population in one go that leads to better PP/RP in a faster pace?
They don't need the target system to be supply connected - as opposed to outpost colonies needing it.
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Re: I'm here - introduction

#187 Post by Bromstarzan »

Thanks for sumarizing that in one clear sentence, Cpeosphoros.
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Re: I'm here - introduction

#188 Post by Cpeosphoros »

In a less summarized fashion:

- Sometimes, it's still useful to send outpost ships slightly out your supply range, as outposts will span some supply by themselves - thus connecting to your supply and allowing them to be colonized.
- Some buildings can be built on outposts.
- Outposts will grow (with a penalty) planetary shields, defenses and troops, so they can be useful for defending your borders even if you don't plan to colonize them.
- If you already have a shipbuilding colonizer species colony on a system with more than one planet, you can set outposts on the extra planets with outpost bases, which are way cheaper than outpost ships.
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Re: I'm here - introduction

#189 Post by AndrewW »

Cpeosphoros wrote:- If you already have a shipbuilding colonizer species colony on a system with more than one planet, you can set outposts on the extra planets with outpost bases, which are way cheaper than outpost ships.
That also opens up the possibility of using a colony base if you happen to want to use that species.

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Re: I'm here - introduction

#190 Post by defaultuser »

Cpeosphoros wrote:- Sometimes, it's still useful to send outpost ships slightly out your supply range, as outposts will span some supply by themselves
I didn't think that was true unless you have researched some of the Construction techs.

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Cpeosphoros
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Re: I'm here - introduction

#191 Post by Cpeosphoros »

defaultuser wrote:
Cpeosphoros wrote:- Sometimes, it's still useful to send outpost ships slightly out your supply range, as outposts will span some supply by themselves
I didn't think that was true unless you have researched some of the Construction techs.
AFAIK, without any tech, small outposts will project 1 supply, and tiny ones will project 2 (taking 2 turns to do so, in this case).
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MatGB
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Re: I'm here - introduction

#192 Post by MatGB »

Correct, and Orbital Construction is a very early tech given it's a prerequisite for several core advances at which point even Medium worlds get +1.

And yes, even I sometimes mess that up and grab large worlds out of supply, and I helped write those scripts :oops: :oops: :oops:

(I am, BTW, thinking of stealing some of the explanations here and putting it into the game, as some of it's much clearer than the stuff I've written)
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Re: I'm here - introduction

#193 Post by Cpeosphoros »

MatGB wrote:(I am, BTW, thinking of stealing some of the explanations here and putting it into the game, as some of it's much clearer than the stuff I've written)
Feel free to grab any of my stuff.
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Re: I'm here - introduction

#194 Post by Bromstarzan »

MatGB wrote:(I am, BTW, thinking of stealing some of the explanations here and putting it into the game, as some of it's much clearer than the stuff I've written)
It is good if this thread can be of use in anyway.
It contains many important questions and answers for a beginner, which was my aim, although I could not imagine the response being so massive/helpful (considering everybodys schedules these days :wink: ). As I mentioned earlier, I'm putting together my own little list/tutorial (which probably has 10x the questions to which I found answers myself).

It is important to understand that (from a beginners perspective) the information in the Pedia is there, but not always easy to comprehend. It is a question of understanding what is modifiers, what is tech and what is a building, and what does that building do (global or local effect, etc). Looking at the pedia after a few sessions (read experienced player), those texts that were complete "greek" (no offence) are very good and informative. So, while Pedia is very powerful, it might be possible to make it even more accessible for the newcomer, perhaps just adding a "starter" section that explains the crucial/key components under the concept header?

I hope I can contribute to this as time goes on. I started on a mindmap trying to outline/classify buildings/techs/modifiers/ship parts/hulls etc. in so that what is used for construction and what is applied "directly" and consequently; what it gives the player and why that is important. Things like that.

[edit] Also remember, finding out the hard way - by playing the game - is also an important element of gamplay. Some prefer not knowing too much as finding out is part of tthe game :mrgreen:
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Re: I'm here - introduction

#195 Post by Bromstarzan »

Ok, so here's just to underline something I suggested here (appr. 2 weeks ago). It was added to GitHub by Cpeosphoros and added as a "feature idea" by adrianbroher shortly after.

Having notes following fleets might be quite impossible to implement since they get split up for various reasons or destroyed etc etc. But having the ability to attach a "comment/to-do/not to-do/other warnings"-note for a system is perhaps doable?

Surely, one can keep notes on a paper at the side, but since cellulose is on my baby daughter's menu I seem to loose my notes rapidly :lol:

Many feature wishes to look into, I know, but it would be interesting to hear if this is considered:
a) a good idea
b) doable

Would it elevate the game? It would for me, but I'm not (yet) the average 4X gamer.
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