Online voice chat meeting, Monday November 30th 2020

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Vezzra
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Online voice chat meeting, Monday November 30th 2020

#1 Post by Vezzra »

The last Monday of the month is coming up, meaning it's time for another online voice chat meeting :D

The meeting will on Monday November 30th 2020, at the usual time (7pm UCT or 8pm Vienna/Berlin time).

Jitsi room (also as usual):

https://meet.jit.si/ThoroughNovembersConvertPossibly

Agenda:
  1. Latest progress with the Godot client prototype
  2. I'd like to have some discussion about the Detection/Stealth, Supply-disconnected Hidden Empires and Imperial Stockpile game mechanics, the issues we continue to have with these and the reasons behind that. It would be good of course if the people who have been promoting/involved with these game mechanics would participate (like Ophiuchus etc.)
  3. As always, anything else that comes to mind ;)

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Oberlus
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Re: Online voice chat meeting, Monday November 30th 2020

#2 Post by Oberlus »

Vezzra wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 2:34 pm I'd like to have some discussion about the Detection/Stealth, Supply-disconnected Hidden Empires and Imperial Stockpile game mechanics, the issues we continue to have with these and the reasons behind that. It would be good of course if the people who have been promoting/involved with these game mechanics would participate (like Ophiuchus etc.)
For reference:
Stealth:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=11294
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=11509

Distributed:
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=11805

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Re: Online voice chat meeting, Monday November 30th 2020

#3 Post by o01eg »

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Re: Online voice chat meeting, Monday November 30th 2020

#4 Post by Ophiuchus »

Stealth + Ranges in combat
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Re: Online voice chat meeting, Monday November 30th 2020

#5 Post by Vezzra »

Hm, that sounds like a lot of topics, maybe we'll need to schedule an extra meeting next week. Lets see how far we'll get tomorrow evening...

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Re: Online voice chat meeting, Monday November 30th 2020

#6 Post by Ophiuchus »

Stealth/Distributed empire recap:

Vezzra found that distributed hidden empire was not in the vision from the start so we should have a look at the basics/if we need to change something so distributed hidden empire. Like allowing multiple empires to be on a planet (regions).

Or hidden supply lanes. We had overlapping supply lanes once. These are considered an UI desaster. Even if only 2 empires are involved (as in the hidden supply lanes case). Geoff does not want to go there.

Ophiuchus recapped that stealth is currently broken for all stealthy empires. The lighthouse basically is a way to easily and cheaply remove the stealth if there is another planet in the system. In current master, multiple policies allow for easier detection so stealth is sorely in need of balance/changes.
Also we have different independent systems of stealth right now. Stealth in combat, fleet stealth on the map, and planetary stealth.

Geoff suggested a vision, where a hidden empires needs to change it ways. In the beginning hidden planets, then hidden colonies, then ship-based colonies. For a normal supply connected empire it is usually the other way round, first barely connected systems, then colonies are common and then they are everywhere (taking the distributed hidden empire niches away).

Hidden planets would really be hidden, one would not see that the planet is there. This is mostly an option if no enemy has seen the planet before.

(note one could also add more native hidden planets for hidden distributed empires to take over in mid game)

Geoff decided we wont go for multi-empire planets. But there could be still hidden colonies.
Hidden colonies would be revealed if an empire tries to colonize there.

(note probably the colonisation would fail but the colony ship would be used up regardless, so one cant simply probe everything cheaply)

Geoff also suggested stealth to be more progressive/have more levels.
Unique stealth options one can do when being sneaky - like stealing research, mining from orbit... which make the game more interesting as well strategically viable.

Also large fleets should be easier to detect.

We agreed that for having hidden distributed empires to work, occupy-all-planets should be way costly/be very late game/not be viable. There has to be some space/a niche for the hidden empire to colonize inbetween a foreign empire.
Three suggestions so only a fraction of planets gets colonized: influence cost should makes occupy-all-planets economically prohibitive (so we should implement bad effects for having negative influence balance), adding something besides environment to the colonisability of a planet (e.g. planet size),

Some more things to think about:
Distributed hidden empires miss on a lot of benefits (all supply-connected ones like industry center/growth specials).
One could build special buildings/have specific policies which are not supply-connection based or have a policy which makes it possible to ignore supply-connectedness for some buildings.
Or one could change the definition of supply-networks (making supply-networks possible without supply-lines ~ e.g. by stargates).

The main species (which should be) able to start a hidden (partly) distributed empire are currently: Sly, Laenfa (great stealth, stockpile), and Scylior (great research, bad supply), Chato (great research).

One problem with distributed empires is that if you have colonies in a foreign empire, your supply lines disrupts the foreign supply network. That usually cant be tolerated. Sly has the bad supply trait (+gas giants) for that and there is also a no supply policy.
On the other hand, if you do not have supply there, you cant refuel/resupply. There should be done something about this.
It is said some people would oppose allowing resupply from planets in the same system if you do not own the supply line. Else you could simply drop an outpost/colony in heartland and resupply your fleet from there - i think that is mostly because of fighters(?).
For a partly fix, Sly could get better gas giant refuel and Laenfa could get some phototrophic refueling (based on star brightness). Vezzra said he would like to have that rather tied in to some policies (e.g. a policy allowing phototrophic refueling for phototrophic crews). Geoff said having some unique species traits is fine.

Ophiuchus mentioned that supply lines are a dead giveaway for many things, so having some way of declaring/having hidden (non-overlapping) supply lines would be good. Those would probably be weaker than all non-hidden ones and be triggered by a policy.

Vezzra also mentioned that it should be possible to incorporate more than one species in your hidden empire. Following the species-is-not-empire principle.

Stealth+Ranges recap: agreed not to make it a general thing, but add e.g. a weapon type which starts shooting from third bout on. Easy thing to implement, only weapon damage estimation is a bigger thing.
Maybe bout number should be not less than three. Or at least a hint should be left in the UI that a lower setting breaks part of the content.

edit1: this was longer than intended
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Re: Online voice chat meeting, Monday November 30th 2020

#7 Post by o01eg »

Ophiuchus wrote: Mon Nov 30, 2020 11:26 pm Stealth/Distributed empire recap:
Nice. Do we have same for Godot discussion?
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Re: Online voice chat meeting, Monday November 30th 2020

#8 Post by Oberlus »

Ophiuchus wrote: Mon Nov 30, 2020 11:26 pm Stealth/Distributed empire recap:
Did you treat the issue about all-or-nothing in stealth for planets and ship in the map?
We have that old suggestion about making half-stealth colonies harder to invade (bonus to defensive troops and/or hiding the number of defending troops).

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Re: Online voice chat meeting, Monday November 30th 2020

#9 Post by Ophiuchus »

Oberlus wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 8:49 pm
Ophiuchus wrote: Mon Nov 30, 2020 11:26 pm Stealth/Distributed empire recap:
Did you treat the issue about all-or-nothing in stealth for planets and ship in the map?
We have that old suggestion about making half-stealth colonies harder to invade (bonus to defensive troops and/or hiding the number of defending troops).
No, we were talking on a more fundamental level (like how should hidden empires evolve, how its important to provide holes they can sneak in, ..) and could not touch all technical details.
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

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Re: Online voice chat meeting, Monday November 30th 2020

#10 Post by Vezzra »

Oberlus wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 8:49 pmDid you treat the issue about all-or-nothing in stealth for planets and ship in the map?
If what you're asking is if we came up with an actual solution how to fix the broken detection/stealth mechanic, then no - as Ophiuchus pointed out, we didn't have the time to go into detail there.

We did however touch the subject and agreed that, in order for stealthy empires ever to reasonably work, we definitely need to fix this.

As I stated in the meeting, stealthy empire mechanics build upon the detection/stealth mechanic. So, if the latter is broken, the former can never really work. To get the former to work, we need to fix the latter. Quite simple... ;)

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Re: Online voice chat meeting, Monday November 30th 2020

#11 Post by Vezzra »

o01eg wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 9:15 amDo we have same for Godot discussion?
No sorry. We didn't think it really necessary. For the stealthy empire etc. stuff we thought it necessary because we did make some important game design decisions which should be written down somewhere.

Was there anything regarding the Godot stuff discussion you'd want to get written down too?

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