0.5 release

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Vezzra
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Re: 0.5 release

#16 Post by Vezzra »

Grummel7 wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 12:48 pm I haven't followed all the design discussion of late, but one thing that definitely needs to be done for the release is a pedia page telling how to get policy slots. So far I always search the script files, but that should not be the official way, I guess :?
There are probably a lot of issues/shortcomings with the documentation of all the new features and mechanics in the pedia, this apparently one of them. In order to keep track of and address them, we need to open github issues for all of them.

Can you open an issue for this one?

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Re: 0.5 release

#17 Post by Ophiuchus »

Grummel7 wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 12:48 pm I haven't followed all the design discussion of late, but one thing that definitely needs to be done for the release is a pedia page telling how to get policy slots. So far I always search the script files, but that should not be the official way, I guess :?
For techs it should be shown in the tech tree as well
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LienRag
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Re: 0.5 release

#18 Post by LienRag »

Ophiuchus wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 1:14 pm
Grummel7 wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 12:48 pm one thing that definitely needs to be done for the release is a pedia page telling how to get policy slots.
For techs it should be shown in the tech tree as well
It is, but it's not legible if you don't know precisely where to search.

What would be useful would be in the Influence panel a list per category of ways to get the slots.

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Re: 0.5 release

#19 Post by LienRag »

What is direly needed if we want the AI players to be any challenge at all is to allow for AI alliance at higher difficulty level.
I was pointed to the code managing AI but don't really understand it; though I noticed that there is a simple procedure to answer to peace offerings.

I wasn't able to find the variable that determines if a player is an AI or not, but if someone at least a little bit familiar with the code base can manage to code a very simple mechanism to allow AI to gang up against the player after some number of turns, it'll really bring the challenge up a real notch.

Simplest idea : at turn 200, all AI send a peace offering to other AIs, and each AI getting a peace offering from another AI accepts it.

A bit more elaborate : It's a bit less absurd to have AI that are not currently invading each other to make peace than to have AI at the cutthroat of each other suddenly become friends at turn 200...
So : starting at turn 50, each AI that hasn't met at least one other AI has a chance of (turnNumber - 50)/100 to make one peace offering, randomly selected among the AI not met. Each AI that gets a peace offering from an AI automatically accepts it.

Later we can develop more interesting mechanisms, maybe including Influence projects and/or Species values in the mix, but for 5.0 it would be enough imho to implement one of these two versions for Maniacal-level games.

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Re: 0.5 release

#20 Post by Ophiuchus »

LienRag wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 4:38 pm
Ophiuchus wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 1:14 pm
Grummel7 wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 12:48 pm one thing that definitely needs to be done for the release is a pedia page telling how to get policy slots.
For techs it should be shown in the tech tree as well
It is, but it's not legible if you don't know precisely where to search.
I meant in the tree view (where it does not exist)
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Vezzra
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Re: 0.5 release

#21 Post by Vezzra »

LienRag wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 7:35 pmSimplest idea : at turn 200, all AI send a peace offering to other AIs, and each AI getting a peace offering from another AI accepts it.
That might be the simplest possible solution, but the question is, if "simplest" really equals "simple" in that case. I suspect it won't be enough just to send and accept peaco proposals, the AI needs to know how to treat/react to another empire it is at peace with (in terms of threat evaluation, colonization considerations etc.), at least on a rudimentary level. If the AI reacts to it's "friends" exactly as to it's enemies, then not much is gained in the end.

And teaching the AI that (even only rudimentarily) might already not be exactly "simple". However, that question should probably be answered by someone from the AI team...

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Re: 0.5 release

#22 Post by LienRag »

You mean that the AI is never at peace with another AI ?
I thought that it could happen at lower aggression levels, but it's true that I never tested.

That makes things bad indeed, but at least if AI ships stopped destroying each other it would already be a better result that what we have now...
Worst case, AI would pile huge fleets of warships and keep them stranded since they can't attack their allies, which means that when the player comes near them they're ready to fight him.

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Re: 0.5 release

#23 Post by Vezzra »

LienRag wrote: Sun Dec 12, 2021 5:57 pm You mean that the AI is never at peace with another AI ?
AFAIK, no.

Anyway, as I said, that question should better be addressed by someone of the AI team. I don't really know how much it would mess up the AI if enabling it to make peace with other AIs, but not teaching it how to deal with "friends". And I don't know how difficult it would be to teach the AI some basic rules about dealing with friends either.

I've just wondered how simple the seemingly simple solution really is... AI team? Anyone?

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Re: 0.5 release

#24 Post by Vezzra »

It has been over half a year since the last post here in this thread, so an update is more than overdue. At our last online voice chat meeting on June 28th we decided to aim for autumn for the 0.5 release, and for the creation of the 0.5 release branch in mid August (we very likely might not be able to meet these goals, considering how much still needs to be done, but we thought it is necessary to start setting ourselfes some goals to eventually get things into a release-ready state... ;)).

To achieve that, a lot of things need to be done, polished, finished - as the top post of this thread already outlined all that, and much of what I've said there still applies, I'm not going to repeat it all here, but just point to you back there. Please re-read the top post (and ideally the rest of the thread) to freshen up your memory.

I'll try to summarize the important/relevant points and what progress has been made on them since (to my knowledge), and also ask for anyone who knows to also report on progress made (or comment on my assessment thereof):
  • Polishing/balancing Policies and Influence production/costs: Much progress has been made here, from what I've heard things are now in a place where (while of course still rough around the edges and a lot of room for improvement left, so still a lot of work ahead) things have matured enough for a first release. However, I want to hear your comments on that topic especially, as it's the main new feature of 0.5. Are we at a point where things aren't too broken anymore for a release?
  • Broken AI: Here also a lot of progress has been made, thanks to Grummel7 (who joined our ranks not too long ago) who had been very productive in helping out the AI team. If I understand correctly, the AI too is now in a state where it isn't completely broken anymore, but able to play sufficiently well for a release. Again, please give your comments on that, as it's a very important issue regarding release-readiness. ;)
  • Changes/additions to the combat system: As far as I am aware, things on that front have been finished and should be ready for release. Any comments on that?
  • Stealth: It has been noted that stealth isn't in a usable place, specifically the impossibility to use it in a defensive way against players. The question has been raised if it's possible to get in fixes for 0.5 to at least alleviate the problem to some degree. I don't know what (or if anything at all) has been done regarding this, and in what state those fixes are. Can anyone comment on that? If nothing has happened yet, I'd strongly recommend to drop it for 0.5 and get that in for later releases.
  • Lacking/incorrect/out of date pedia content: Specifically pedia content for the new Influence/Goverment mechanics and Policies has been found lacking (aside from the ever present issue of incorrect/outdated content). What's the progress on this? While we won't be able to get the pedia into a perfect state, have things improved enough so the pedia is in an acceptable state for a release, or does it still need work? If the latter, how far along are we, what needs to be done still?
Anything else that needs to be addressed for 0.5, which I have missed?

Our main tool to keep track of what needs to be done for 0.5 (aside from this thread) is our github issue tracker. I want to reiterate what I said in the top post:
  • Please go over the open issues and PRs and assign all of them that need to be addressed/finished for 0.5 to the 0.5 milestone. If you lack the rights to do that, post a request for the issue/PR you want assigned to the release milestone here in this thread.
  • Open issues/provide PRs for anything you think needs to get addressed/included into 0.5 on github (and assign them to the release milestone or ask here for a dev to do that for you).
I've made this thread sticky and provided a link to the open issues and PRs for 0.5 in the top post. I'll also provide that link here:

https://github.com/freeorion/freeorion/milestones/v0.5

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Re: 0.5 release

#25 Post by wobbly »

Vezzra wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 11:18 am
  • Lacking/incorrect/out of date pedia content: Specifically pedia content for the new Influence/Goverment mechanics and Policies has been found lacking (aside from the ever present issue of incorrect/outdated content). What's the progress on this? While we won't be able to get the pedia into a perfect state, have things improved enough so the pedia is in an acceptable state for a release, or does it still need work? If the latter, how far along are we, what needs to be done still?
I'll take this if no one from the dev team wants it, though I may need to ask questions where it takes work in c++

Out of date: Structure/combat damage from pre-4 round combat
Missing: Combat, stability modifiers, blockade rules overview
Policies: Some are unclear about the specific bonuses
Stealth/detection: Missing mechanics regarding stars and fleet sizes.

People, especially new players should post on the forums about unclear mechanics if they wish it addressed.

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Re: 0.5 release

#26 Post by LienRag »

Vezzra wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 11:18 am
  • Polishing/balancing Policies and Influence production/costs: Much progress has been made here, from what I've heard things are now in a place where (while of course still rough around the edges and a lot of room for improvement left, so still a lot of work ahead) things have matured enough for a first release. However, I want to hear your comments on that topic especially, as it's the main new feature of 0.5. Are we at a point where things aren't too broken anymore for a release?
Depends on your value of "not too broken anymore".
Playable, yes.
Balanced, clearly no.
Interesting, I'd say not yet, but YMMV.

Vezzra wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 11:18 am
  • Stealth: It has been noted that stealth isn't in a usable place, specifically the impossibility to use it in a defensive way against players. The question has been raised if it's possible to get in fixes for 0.5 to at least alleviate the problem to some degree. I don't know what (or if anything at all) has been done regarding this, and in what state those fixes are. Can anyone comment on that? If nothing has happened yet, I'd strongly recommend to drop it for 0.5 and get that in for later releases.
Nothing really advanced AFAIK. There's been a discussion about an interesting idea I had here but it's too big a change for 0.5 I'd say, especially if you want to release soon.

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Re: 0.5 release

#27 Post by Ophiuchus »

LienRag wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 6:39 pm
Vezzra wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 11:18 am
  • Stealth: It has been noted that stealth isn't in a usable place, specifically the impossibility to use it in a defensive way against players. The question has been raised if it's possible to get in fixes for 0.5 to at least alleviate the problem to some degree. I don't know what (or if anything at all) has been done regarding this, and in what state those fixes are. Can anyone comment on that? If nothing has happened yet, I'd strongly recommend to drop it for 0.5 and get that in for later releases.
Nothing really advanced AFAIK. There's been a discussion about an interesting idea I had here but it's too big a change for 0.5 I'd say, especially if you want to release soon.
there are some well-known issues which can rather easily be addressed - in the sense that the result will be better than what we have right now.

i suggest we do the low hanging fruits and polish it in 0.5 and do any substantial changes in the next cycle. i will try to whip something up for the next week

p.s.: i tried implementing easier detection of ships if you detected them the turn before - but that rabbit hole is quite deeper than expected, so not even sure it will ever come. This is because a stealth meter drop or attached special exposes that there is a detecting empire in range. Such a tag would need backend support for something like a special per-object/per-empire.
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Re: 0.5 release

#28 Post by LienRag »

Ophiuchus wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:56 am there are some well-known issues which can rather easily be addressed - in the sense that the result will be better than what we have right now.

i suggest we do the low hanging fruits and polish it in 0.5 and do any substantial changes in the next cycle. i will try to whip something up for the next week
Fine by me.

A low-hanging fruit that could be interesting imho (though not about stealth) would be this proposition of mine...

Ophiuchus wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:56 am p.s.: i tried implementing easier detection of ships if you detected them the turn before - but that rabbit hole is quite deeper than expected, so not even sure it will ever come. This is because a stealth meter drop or attached special exposes that there is a detecting empire in range. Such a tag would need backend support for something like a special per-object/per-empire.
I know that it's one of you pet projects but I'm not sure about its real gameplay value... One thing I find the most interesting to play right now concerning stealth is when you see an enemy ship for some reason, and then suddenly you don't see it so have to guess where it went. Considering its speed and what was its stealth it's an informed guess, so a real battle of wits.
Your proposal would remove all this, which would imho do more harm than good.

I understand the thrill of the hunt in trying to follow a ship, but in what we have now it's nearly always present, while with your proposal, this thrill would appear only before the ship is spotted; after that following it would mostly be a no-brainer.

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Re: 0.5 release

#29 Post by Ophiuchus »

LienRag wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 6:10 pm I know that it's one of you pet projects but I'm not sure about its real gameplay value...
i am also not so sure, but my guess it lead to more interesting situations.
LienRag wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 6:10 pm One thing I find the most interesting to play right now concerning stealth is when you see an enemy ship for some reason, and then suddenly you don't see it so have to guess where it went...
Your proposal would remove all this,
the effect would be one of many (in the -5 stealth range maybe), so if the balance is right or stealth tech is good enough: no, it wont.

the idea is to make stealth use actually happen more often (so easier access to higher ship stealth in the standard case)

anyway, this idea is off topic here (because it is not simple to implement)
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Re: 0.5 release

#30 Post by Vezzra »

wobbly wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 11:41 amI'll take this if no one from the dev team wants it, though I may need to ask questions where it takes work in c++

Out of date: Structure/combat damage from pre-4 round combat
Missing: Combat, stability modifiers, blockade rules overview
Policies: Some are unclear about the specific bonuses
Stealth/detection: Missing mechanics regarding stars and fleet sizes.
These are quite specific, issues for them could/should be opened on Github and assigned to the 0.5 milestone. Makes it easier to keep track of what needs to be done for the pedia, and work through it.

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